[00:00:06] Speaker A: Hi. My name is Katie Malone.
[00:00:07] Speaker B: And I'm Brendan, the husband.
[00:00:09] Speaker A: And you're listening to The Little Flock, the podcast that offers practical insights about living a counterculture of goodness, truth, and beauty in a world of increasingly hostile secularism and indifference.
[00:00:19] Speaker B: So if you're looking to learn from two imperfect followers of Christ about how to live like the wheat amongst the darnell, this is definitely the podcast for you.
Hi, everybody. Welcome back to another episode of The Little Flock. This month's episode, Katie. December.
[00:00:38] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:00:39] Speaker B: Yeah. Hard to believe the year is almost over.
[00:00:42] Speaker A: Yep, it's coming up quick.
[00:00:44] Speaker B: Let me get all of the things out of the way that we need to get out of the way before we get started. First of all, if you're not already a subscriber, please subscribe. And don't forget to share these episodes. If you find merit in them, then there's probably a fairly good chance that at least some other people might find merit in them as well. So please share the love. If you're on a channel that you're listening on right now, whatever platform, that's what all the cool kids say, whatever platform that you're listening the youth, whatever you're listening on right now, if you can give us a rating or some stars, a bit of a comment, all that sort of stuff, that really helps. Don't forget also that this is a podcast that relies on your support. So if you feel so inclined, you're benefiting from this content and you would like to help the cause and the ministry work that Katie and I are involved in, then you can do that. Probably the easiest way to do that is at Foot Media, and you can contribute as much or as little as you'd like by becoming a monthly patron of The Little Flock podcast there. Alternately, there's also a link. If you want to leave a one off contribution, you can do that as well. The link for that is also found in today's Show notes. Now, we need to correct something here, katie, normally it's the other way around, right? And normally it is I who is being corrected, not doing for correcting. Okay, where are we going with this? You know where this is going. I'm often in trouble, but Katie's, like, for good reason.
That's what you were thinking, wasn't it?
[00:02:13] Speaker A: Pretty much.
[00:02:16] Speaker B: We complete each other's sandwiches, so I was going to say sentences there that's what if you haven't heard that joke, then yeah. Anyway, five or six year old girls. Yeah, that's true.
So last time we said in the previous episode, hey, there'll be a link in the Show Notes. And then the link sorry, there'll be a link in the Show Notes for the question form. So that we've got a Google form if you want to ask us your questions. And by the way, it's totally anonymous. Totally anonymous.
There's only really two things to fill out. One is any questions you want us to answer on the show or topics you'd like us to cover. It really is that simple. Totally anonymous. We don't read out names or anything like that. So be as frank and as challenging as you think you need to be or you want to be. No matter what the issues are, we will do our best to answer them. Absolutely. We're the hard hitting podcast.
[00:03:05] Speaker A: We might not get the answers right.
[00:03:06] Speaker B: No, the answer utter rubbish, but at least we outset them. But we promise you, no names, no email addresses. Totally anonymous. Now, I said last time, hey, use the link in the Show Notes. Well, we couldn't get the link to actually stay in the Show Notes, and we think, finally getting to the bottom of it, there might be a bit of an issue with just the podcast hosting service. And this particular type of link for Google Forms is that they don't let you do that. We have a feeling there might be some spam, I don't know.
The deposed king of Nigeria might be using this as a method to email people. We don't know what it is, but this might be some reason why, but it clearly appears it won't accept that link. So what we've done now is, if you go to our LifeNet website, which you can go
[email protected] NZ, there is a link in the Show Notes today for that. You will see at the very top of the page on the homepage, there is a button that you can click on and that will take you that link does work and it is there. It's not going to disappear. And that will take you directly to the Google Form, where you can actually send in your questions. So, apologies, that link will be in today's Show Notes. It's now been amended in the previous Show Notes as well. It's in there, too. That's the best way to do it. So, Lifenet.org, NZ, and then click on that button at the top of the page. You can't miss it. You really can't miss it. And by the way, I should say, we've got a little special treat that you might be interested in. Some of you may be aware, I also have another podcast which is a bit more political, bit more just a.
[00:04:31] Speaker A: Tiny bit, a bit more opinionated.
[00:04:36] Speaker B: Family secrets.
A bit more controversial, possibly, but it's the kind of podcast where you think, I want to punch that guy in the face. If you disagree with him, it's not quite that bad, it's not polemical, it's very calm, but it's a bit more opinions and issues of the day. Issues.
Catherine Kim would say that, wouldn't they? Issues, tissues for your issues.
But this coming week, that podcast called The Dispatches, which you can find on all the platforms, by the way, too, if you search that up, we're going to have a special episode next week with the kids, just me and the kids, and we're going to talk about Christmas films. I love a good film film with me in it.
We're going to be talking about their favorite Christmas movies and our favorite family Christmas movies and stuff. So me and the children children partly to give Katie a break oh, cheers. During the school holiday. All of an hour, probably, but you might want to tune into that and have a listen and get some ideas for films that you could maybe watch.
[00:05:37] Speaker A: Over the addressing the age old question, is Diehard a Christmas movie?
[00:05:41] Speaker B: Well, I don't know if we will, because our kids are not old enough to watch that yet. You and I can address that question right now. Would you think it is a Christmas movie? It depends which Diehard, but yes, it really is. End of story. What do they say? There's two people in this world, two types of people in this world, those who know that Diehard is a Christmas movie and Communists.
Okay, so that's coming up next week. Now let's jump straight in. I thought we'd do something a little bit different today, and we're going to start with an article that was doing the rounds on social media a few weeks back, and I thought it would be I thought we'd get each other's hot takes.
[00:06:16] Speaker A: Oh, okay.
[00:06:17] Speaker B: A hot take on this article. It is yawning away already. Gosh, we haven't even it's a tough time.
[00:06:22] Speaker A: 30 this morning. It was when the six year old woke up.
[00:06:25] Speaker B: I almost woke up a lot, too, at that time.
So challenging. Okay, here's the article. It's titled Woman Calls Out Daddy Privilege. So daddy privileges. Now, everyone gets privilege of some kind, right? But Daddy privilege husband hailed a hero for running errands. So I'll read you just a couple of bits of the article, and then we can have a chat about this so you can get the gist of what happened. A US woman has called out the phenomenon oh, so now it's a phenomenon. So it's moved on from just an opinion to an actual it's widespread. It's a pandemic of daddy privilege.
A woman has called out the phenomenon of daddy privilege not a thing.
After her husband was hailed a hero, quote unquote, for running the errands she usually would with her six month old son, Chloe Sexton, who owns Bluff Cakes Bakery. Okay, okay, so this is a bit of promotion here. Say something controversial. Get a bit of the old Bluff Cakes Bakery. The Benjamin Start coming in. It's true, it's an old tactic. Get yourself noticed on social media, but maybe that's just cynical me.
Chloe Sexton, who owns Bluff Cakes Bakery in Memphis, Tennessee, went viral on TikTok. What are you doing on TikTok? Anyway. In October, when she shared a clip discussing the public perception of her husband and other fathers other fathers, all of them holding the couple's infant son, Theodore, she said she often brings him along with her when running errands for her business and people don't bat an eye. But when her husband recently did the same, she said he was lumped with praise. Lumped?
[00:08:03] Speaker A: Oh, no.
[00:08:04] Speaker B: Can you be lumped with praise? Yeah, that's like a burden, isn't it? When you're lumped with something, you have.
[00:08:09] Speaker A: To take all that praise.
[00:08:10] Speaker B: Oh, all the praise came upon me, and I could not handle it. He was lumped with praise by strangers. And she went on to say that people said that he was a hero. And what else did people say? And then she said, well, look, I did all this when I was pregnant, and I'd ran all the errands and no one said a word to me. And so she said someone said literally, he's a hero. She said, he's just a father, just a parent doing the same shit I do every week. So obviously a little bit frustrated by this. First question for you, Katie. Okay, let us discuss and dissect this because there's two issues here. One is, do you think she has a point?
[00:08:47] Speaker A: To some extent I do, yeah. I think I don't know if you remember when we first had Lucy and I'd had a C section under general anesthetic, so needed tiny bit of rest. And you took baby Lucy to yep. She wouldn't have been a week old when you did that, probably. And I think you came home and said a lot of people were like, wow.
Yeah, I think you got told off by some danners for having her out in the cold.
[00:09:10] Speaker B: I got told off, but, yeah, there's this one lady said, what's that trial doing out? I was like, yeah, shivers are not allowed to take them out of the cupboards, are we too early?
[00:09:23] Speaker A: And also, I remember one time when your brother came to visit us and you were taking the three girls to the pools, and he expressed great surprise that you would do that all by yourself.
[00:09:36] Speaker B: Yeah, that is funny. I think some blokes just sort of naturally they have a I think the bloke brain has its limits. We can engineer bridges. We can do all these phenomenal things. We can build a shed. We have it planned out in our head months in advance. But it's like, what having to organize more than two children sometimes get a bit daunting.
[00:10:06] Speaker A: But that was just a normal thing for you, taking them out. It was never a big deal.
[00:10:10] Speaker B: I'm not really a hero dad either, by the way, because I'm plenty of things I struggle with and I'm not good at. But I think there is a point here, though. It definitely does seem that dads are but Christian. Is that a negative thing? Is that a bad thing? When people say what a legend?
Is it a positive, in a sense, that people are sort of like, oh, good on you, mate. I suppose the negative is that not enough. It's such a rare thing that people feel they have to praise it. Maybe that's the thing.
[00:10:38] Speaker A: Yeah, possibly. And also that maybe women don't get the recognition sometimes when they are working pretty hard.
[00:10:46] Speaker B: By the way, folks, if you can hear what sounds like a tornado in the background, it's just the windy weather here today, the completely normal summer rain and wind balmy ten degrees as per normal, which is not normal here. So that was irony, by the way. I was doing irony. Irony. Sarcasm. Remember that? Do you remember the episode of Father Ted with a sarcastic priest?
[00:11:09] Speaker A: One episode?
[00:11:10] Speaker B: Yeah, that priest, he was really sarcastic. Every answer was sarcastic. And in the end, what's the housekeeper's name? She didn't even know if he was sarcastic or not. Would you like a cup of tea? I'd love a cup of tea. And so she has to make a cup of tea and didn't want it. Yeah, and her brain broke anyway. So that's a total side tangent there. So I guess the negative, though, is so there's two negatives here. One is that women mums don't get the recognition that perhaps they deserve for doing what is the work of motherhood is truly heroic, I think. And it's funny often, too. I think there's a challenge because those of us who are passionate and committed to marriage and family and goodness, truth and beauty and have a sort of very Christian vision of reality, we understand the complementarity of men and women and the beauty of marriage and stuff. But often, perhaps we can fail a little bit and perhaps what's the word I'm saying here?
I'm trying to think what I'm take.
[00:12:07] Speaker A: It for granted a little bit.
[00:12:08] Speaker B: Yeah, we take it for granted. And we often talk about the fact that motherhood is this profound and wondrous thing, but maybe we don't yet. We just take it for granted. We don't actually praise our mothers enough, even though we talk quite often about how wondrous and the world would be a broken place without the gift of motherhood.
Yeah, that's interesting. I think the other thing here that is concerning, I guess, is that it's possibly so rare for people to see Dads out with their kids that they.
[00:12:36] Speaker A: Think, oh, my gosh, maybe just out doing normal stuff. Like, I often see Dads out taking their kids to McDonald's or doing things where I feel like mums get the short end of the stick a little bit, where it's just like, well, no, we're not going to go to McDonald's every time we leave the house, we're just going to go to the boring old park.
[00:12:51] Speaker B: You often say, that right, because dad.
[00:12:53] Speaker A: Me go out and spend money on them.
[00:12:55] Speaker B: Okay, kids, who wants fun time with the fun parents?
[00:12:58] Speaker A: Yeah, daddy gets to do the fun outings and Mummy just gets the old, oh, we're off to the doctors to get your vaccinations.
[00:13:04] Speaker B: Who wants a Jab for measles, then, today versus Daddy, who's like, who wants a fluffy cone with a Mcblind Chocolate Death by Bloomins? What do they call them? S'mores and skittles.
Who wants the Mcdiabetes shake today? And the kids like, Yay, dad, you're amazing. Yeah, so that's true. So that is a bit worrying, though, that a lot of people thought that it's heroic to see a man with his kids.
[00:13:31] Speaker A: When I used to take the twins out by myself, I used to get a lot of, oh, my goodness, too, you're so amazing. And I remember one time going to the supermarket with the six month old twins in the trolley, and somebody saying to me, Gosh, that's a handful and a half. And I actually said back to them, well, actually, I left the handful at home with dad, which was Lucy, the two year old.
[00:13:49] Speaker B: That's right.
[00:13:50] Speaker A: Because I was, like, not going anywhere with her.
[00:13:51] Speaker B: She was a machine.
She was we're not allowed to say that handful. She was a leader. That's what I say. It's not cheekiness. It's not disrespect. It's not a little child who needs a bit of discipline. It's leadership. It's like, no, it's been naughty. Leadership is very different from being naughty.
[00:14:12] Speaker A: She's a leader now.
[00:14:13] Speaker B: Yes, when she was two.
[00:14:14] Speaker A: Now she was a handle.
[00:14:16] Speaker B: I'm not sure who she was leading.
Some horde of demon elves somewhere that were being trained in disobedience. I'm not sure. Anyway, that's another story. So, yeah, that's one thing that's a bit troubling, but I guess the interesting and the undervaluing of motherhood. But I guess also the other point to this is she's gone on social media and I guess initially you were like, Ha. Yeah, good point. Yeah, it's good a point. And then you're like, Hold on. She's also got a husband who effectively has kind of been maligned along with a whole lot of other fathers. Has been I think there is a bit of a negative connotation for him in this, isn't there? I don't know.
[00:14:54] Speaker A: Well, it does say later in the article that he was embarrassed by it. He didn't like getting all the he didn't like being lumped with the praise of taking his kids out by himself with one kid, but not embarrassed by.
[00:15:03] Speaker B: Her getting on TikTok to hear family grievances.
[00:15:07] Speaker A: That's a white privilege, isn't it? Or that's something privilege. Social media privilege.
[00:15:11] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:15:12] Speaker A: Having the time to put a story on TikTok and try and get sympathy.
[00:15:15] Speaker B: Yeah. The new normies can't be bothered. Yeah. It's kind of crazy, I think. Yeah. I think there is a lesson in this. The lesson is, if you've got issues like that, deal with your spouse. I don't know. Find other ways to deal with it. I don't know. Because there is a certain sort of I don't know. The danger is that maybe I'm overreading this, but there could be a sort of a derogatory approach being taken to fatherhood on the flip side, as if or they get dragged into it because I don't know, would he be less likely in future or more likely to do this after this? He feels a bit like I'm going to get lumped with I'm going to get shamed on social media, I'm going to get lumped with praise. Oh no. They will burden me with their words of kindness. Stop it, you're a burden to me.
[00:16:00] Speaker A: Get back to me when he takes five children to Littleton for the day and we'll talk about it then.
[00:16:04] Speaker B: Hey, I do that.
[00:16:05] Speaker A: Exactly.
[00:16:06] Speaker B: Super dad. Super dad, yeah.
[00:16:10] Speaker A: We won't talk about how much fish and chips, donuts and lolly shop visits diabetes.
[00:16:17] Speaker B: Diabetes dad. Yeah, that Saturday.
Okay, so that was that article, it was a bit of fun, bit of frivolity.
Last time we started by our discussions we were pandemicy.
We might have to see if we can keep the E going. It might be wrong, I don't know the grammar, nazis will not like that. But we were pandemic y today we're going to be Christmassy. That is a word though, isn't it? Yeah, people say well, it's not according to Michael McIntyre. Yeah. Christmas.
[00:16:50] Speaker A: I'm not really feeling Christmassy.
[00:16:52] Speaker B: Do you reckon Michael McIntyre is a.
[00:16:54] Speaker A: Bit of get stuck into Michael McIntyre because you know how I feel.
[00:16:57] Speaker B: Oh yeah, exactly. This is what I was going to ask do you think that Michael McIntyre is a bit of a motherly woman's comedian? Do their mums love him?
[00:17:06] Speaker A: Well, yeah, I think he would be.
[00:17:07] Speaker B: All right with yeah, yeah, sure, sure. I know some of the more darker comedians, the more cynical comedians you don't think of funny that I listen to. I think of one in particular he's got a whole bit about he did it's a throwaway bit, it's not long, but about Michael McIntyre. Go and listen to your Michael McIntyre.
[00:17:26] Speaker A: I have no problem with that.
[00:17:27] Speaker B: What's that one? The drawer the drawer of Star.
[00:17:30] Speaker A: Oh no, that's my brother's favourite is the Man Drawer. My favourite is the Pogues when he did the song.
[00:17:34] Speaker B: Oh yeah, pogues.
[00:17:35] Speaker A: That's pretty funny.
[00:17:36] Speaker B: I accepted that because I like the yeah. Shane McGowan and the favourite Christmas yeah, that is there, she starts there. Then your favourite Christmas song is secular Christmas song?
[00:17:45] Speaker A: And you accept there are two categories.
[00:17:46] Speaker B: Of Christmas songs is Fairy Tale of New York.
[00:17:49] Speaker A: You're allowed to listen to that in Advent, you're not allowed to listen to other Christmas songs.
[00:17:54] Speaker B: We're very trad Christmas trad in our house. You don't get those carols until Christmas. That's right, stop it. And Katie really does. The other day I was just humming a Christmas carol because I'm leading Christmas music at our church and she was like, stop it's, too soon, sorry about that. The carol fascists.
[00:18:12] Speaker A: So my two favorite secular Christmas songs.
[00:18:14] Speaker B: Are the Fairy Tales in New York, which by the way, was controversial. They had to change some lyrics. But anyway, I still love it.
[00:18:21] Speaker A: I love the fact you can't understand half of it's.
[00:18:23] Speaker B: Awesome.
[00:18:26] Speaker A: Look up the Michael McIntyre version because it's his.
And also Snoopy's Christmas.
[00:18:32] Speaker B: Oh, yeah.
[00:18:33] Speaker A: I do feel Christmassy. I feel Christmassy when I look into Snoopy's Christmas.
[00:18:35] Speaker B: Yeah, snoopy's Christmas is one thing I hate, is wham.
[00:18:39] Speaker A: Yeah. What's out there, isn't it?
[00:18:41] Speaker B: Last Christmas I gave you my heart. Well, why are you still singing then? Because you should be dead. Because you just know got no heart left a little bit. Sorry, I'm a literalist what an awful gift that would be. Open up a box with a heart in it.
What is this demonic song all about? Cannibalism or something? No, but yeah, that song. Look, I said as we our oldest daughter has suddenly discovered that song.
[00:19:07] Speaker A: I know Evie really likes it as well.
[00:19:09] Speaker B: Yeah, they've discovered the original our older kids have well, that's something, I think. The Papini sisters have recorded and released the only acceptable version of that song. If you haven't heard the Papinis the Papini the sisters, you check them out, they're great. But they do a song, a version of that song, which Lucy hates.
Lucy hates, but a sort of big band swing style.
[00:19:33] Speaker A: Have you ever played that Wham Christmas game?
[00:19:35] Speaker B: Which is what?
[00:19:36] Speaker A: So when the Christmas cut your heart out and give when the Christmas shopping season starts you're out as soon as you hear it. Oh, no, you got to try not to hear the Wham Christmas song.
Anybody competes to be like the longest wait person before Christmas to hear it's.
[00:19:52] Speaker B: A pandemic every year. It goes endemic every year as soon.
[00:19:55] Speaker A: As you hear it and I think I was out on like, day two of Christmas shopping season.
[00:19:58] Speaker B: It's a Whamdemic every Christmas and it goes endemic. You hear the thing everywhere. That and Mariah Carey.
All I want for Christmas is this song to go away. No, I'm not a Grinch, I really am not. I love a beautiful Christmas carol. There's things I hate. Pentatonix come out this time of year.
[00:20:14] Speaker A: I tell my oh, you're not a.
[00:20:18] Speaker B: Like, that song is beautiful. The Carol of the bells, beautiful. Unless you just go have people going breathing their way through it. And I'm a musician, I'm a singer. I'm telling you, it's not my age.
[00:20:29] Speaker A: Of COVID we should not be doing no.
[00:20:31] Speaker B: Yeah, exactly. What are they spreading? What are these mask up?
I'm not a fan of quadruple masking, but maybe they should cover ten masks then try and sing it then. I'll see how I like it.
But yeah. Wham. So our oldest kids have discovered that Wham song and oh, man, it was like, whoa.
[00:20:46] Speaker A: Okay, kids, I had to change it.
[00:20:49] Speaker B: And I said to our eldest daughter yesterday, in fact, wasn't it? I was around I remember the time when this song was released. I remember when I remember when it was a brand new release. Yes, I'm old enough to remember that watching the music video at that ski resort, man, you have not lived until you were there. I was there. I was there at the beginning. I wear my stripes. So what about traditions? Your family? Let's talk about your family and my family.
Because we have our family, but then we have families that are your family and my family. And so with your family, we're talking Christmas traditions. Yeah.
My wife was a Biggs before she was a Malone, before she took on the Honorable Malone title, she was a Biggs.
Yes. Now, I know what you're thinking. Is she related to Ronnie Biggs, the Great Train robber? No. But everyone asked you that, right? Yes.
[00:21:45] Speaker A: Well, people of a certain generation, yeah, they did.
[00:21:47] Speaker B: Yeah. Everyone knew that story. All the young people were the youngest. Is it Jason Biggs, that actor? Are you related to him?
[00:21:57] Speaker A: My poor mother was a cook, though, so she gets the obvious oh, Captain Cook. Yeah.
[00:22:04] Speaker B: And I don't cook things either, so, yeah, I'm not a chef. So the question then is, in the Biggs family household, were there traditions that you had?
[00:22:13] Speaker A: Yeah, Christmas tradition. Just the usual Christmas tree.
[00:22:16] Speaker B: So putting up the Christmas tree, avoiding.
[00:22:18] Speaker A: The Little Drummer Boy, avoiding you.
[00:22:21] Speaker B: There is loathing in your family for the Little Drummer Boy. The little dumber boy.
[00:22:25] Speaker A: All of the kids play it as.
[00:22:26] Speaker B: A joke to yeah, your dad particularly, he's not a big fan of it.
[00:22:29] Speaker A: Hates it.
[00:22:30] Speaker B: That's so fascinating. The Little Drummer Boy. How can you hate the Little Drummer Boy? I think that song was really two things for me. This is funny because one of the first in fact, it was the first carol, I think probably one of the.
[00:22:43] Speaker A: First things called a carol.
[00:22:45] Speaker B: What is it an abomination in your mind?
You should see the look on her face, listeners. It is just she's like, no, don't even call it a carol. But the first musical performance I ever did, one of the first in public. So I'm a musician, for those who don't know, and I've done a few of them over my time. But the first I did as a young lad was that the Little Drummer Boy and I had this little drum someone had cut, like, one of those farm plastic farm drums in half and then put a skin over the top of it as a makeshift drum. And I was beating on this.
I loved it. So I have a sort of a fond. I have an attraction for that. And your dad is like, Nut get that demonic. Sorcery the power of Christ compels you. Leave me. Doesn't like it at all. And then Johnny Cash did a version, which I quite like, because I like Johnny Cash. He could sing the phone book and I'd like it. But, yeah, still for you, could he sing last Christmas? Yeah, maybe he could, but it would be darker and more meaningful. I guarantee you he'd find a way to he would. And you could imagine June Carter being on the receiving end of it. But anyway but yeah, your dad so that's one tradition.
Didn't you have a Fred Dag tradition?
[00:23:58] Speaker A: Oh, we used to listen to that.
[00:23:59] Speaker B: Yeah, that would come out.
What was the song? I can't remember. We three kings.
[00:24:05] Speaker A: That's for the epiphany, though.
[00:24:06] Speaker B: Yeah, but you would listen to it Christmas, wouldn't you?
[00:24:08] Speaker A: Maybe in the Christmas season.
[00:24:10] Speaker B: Did you do a meal? You did like a meal on a time or a day?
[00:24:13] Speaker A: Yes, very specific. Sitting down for Christmas dinner or lunch.
[00:24:17] Speaker B: None of this day, none of this swanning around business.
[00:24:20] Speaker A: None of this happened.
[00:24:21] Speaker B: What are we doing? Are we doing a barbecue this year?
[00:24:23] Speaker A: Speaking of our family but we will sit down and eat it. We will sit down and there will be ham.
[00:24:28] Speaker B: That's the thing. Got to have ham.
It's funny how a lot of the traditions are actually about the food, aren't they? Or the crackers, the meal. What happens? There's got to be crackers on the table. There's got to be certain servants or there's got to be ham or some other thing.
[00:24:42] Speaker A: That pudding pavlova in your family, right?
[00:24:43] Speaker B: Yeah, pav.
[00:24:44] Speaker A: Got to have pav.
[00:24:44] Speaker B: Did you?
[00:24:45] Speaker A: We never had pav. Christmas pudding.
[00:24:47] Speaker B: I love Christmas pudding. Now, I didn't as a kid. I don't know what it was. Maybe it was just I don't know, as a kid, I was looking for something sweeter.
[00:24:54] Speaker A: We were never a Trifle family, but I think you were a Trifle family.
[00:24:56] Speaker B: We had I can't stand yeah, we had a trifle. We trifled with the trifle.
[00:25:01] Speaker A: But your nana had a recipe. I remember your aunt making it.
[00:25:03] Speaker B: Yes. And my nana had a gosh as kids. I'm pretty sure we were just too lucky up to drive after eating that sherry.
Well, yeah, I think the in joke in the family was I certainly remember my aunts and uncles making this in joke about how that'll put you over the limit and how they would about nana just cannot drinking it while she's you drink two glasses for everyone, that.
[00:25:28] Speaker A: The ratio is important.
[00:25:29] Speaker B: Yeah. Well, as I understand it, the joke was that she drank one glass for every two she put into the sherry. Because it was I remember as a.
[00:25:37] Speaker A: Kid going, oh, gosh, it's just not my favorite.
[00:25:40] Speaker B: Well, I I don't know. Again, I used to, because I'd had that thing of alcoholic trifle.
But what I've come to love like Christmas pudding, I now come to like I've had some good ones. You're like, wow, this is and you get it right, the right heat, bit of custard. You like custard? Or a bit of cream. I prefer the cream. Or the other one was having a good trifle tasting a good trifle. Wow. So this is what it could be. This is the dream. Dream work makes.
[00:26:13] Speaker A: A good trifle.
[00:26:14] Speaker B: Yeah.
So it's funny how a lot of the traditions, though, are meals. Did you do present traditions or anything in your family? Was there?
[00:26:21] Speaker A: Yeah, we had stockings.
[00:26:22] Speaker B: Yeah. Didn't you think with an orange?
[00:26:25] Speaker A: Oh, we always had a bit of an orange at the bottom of the yeah.
[00:26:26] Speaker B: Where did that come from?
[00:26:27] Speaker A: It's just my parents just always did that, I think because oranges used very traditional oranges to have an orange in your Christmas stocking, because they're expensive fruit.
[00:26:33] Speaker B: Right.
[00:26:34] Speaker A: You only got them at Christmas.
[00:26:35] Speaker B: Really?
[00:26:36] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:26:36] Speaker B: Wow.
[00:26:37] Speaker A: Back in the olden days, and it's.
[00:26:38] Speaker B: Not even a Christmas color. It should be. We got red and green. No orange.
[00:26:42] Speaker A: It's not relevant.
[00:26:43] Speaker B: But you got my mum had a funny story. I remember that one of the traditions was you get the stories regurgitated every.
[00:26:50] Speaker A: Year in your family. Never.
[00:26:55] Speaker B: I think that was sarcasm. So, yeah, my mum had this story about sneaking out because they used to put the stockings at the end of their bed when they were kids, and my granddad and grandmother would sneak in once they were all asleep late at night in the darkness and put the presents in. That would wake up, oh, wow, presents are here at the end of your bed. Well, my mum being naughty lot she was. She stayed awake for it. They put the presents in and then she pitched black, didn't want to turn the light on because you get discovered. So she's feeling around, she goes, oh, a bottle. A bottle of it's. A bottle. It's going to be something sweet and tasty. Lemonade, definitely. It's got the same shape. So she opens it up, has a little swigging up with shampoo. Delicious.
So there you go. Our family traditions were yeah, the Christmas meal, that was a Christmasy tradition for us again. Sit down.
We've had barbecues recently. We were talking about even this year, maybe doing another Barbie. Right. In fact, I think we are. Aren't we doing a Barbie this year?
[00:27:54] Speaker A: I don't know, you keep asking me that.
[00:27:55] Speaker B: Yeah, so we'll figure that out. It's just in time for the day, of course, but especially if any of our family members are listening, we'll let you know what you have to bring. But we didn't go in for Barbies.
[00:28:07] Speaker A: Yeah, no, we were very much no Barbies.
[00:28:09] Speaker B: The very bohemian families doing a barbecue. It was sort of more traditional stuff, I remember. Yeah, ham was sort of and I think hams were a bit more expensive. We were a very poor family growing up, so that Christmas was a real occasion. You got a lot of treats at one time, and that was very abnormal in our family because we were not well off at all. They were very poor, in fact. And so I remember Christmas being like a big special thing where all the stops would be pulled. We didn't really have the Christmas crackers, but some relatives we went to Did, I think I remember us, we would normally have a dinner and then there'd be an evening we'd end up somewhere. So you'd have like a few sandwiches leftovers with somewhere, but you'd go somewhere or host and the family would come together. And the extended family, you'd see your aunties and uncles.
I used to love that Christmas traditions. Our presents were in. Did you have actual stockings? Yes, we had pillowcases.
[00:29:04] Speaker A: I know.
I'm very glad that we've gone with the stockings as our tradition.
[00:29:09] Speaker B: Yeah, well, yeah, it's a lot harder to fill up a pillowcase. Pillowcase. But appearance managed to do it despite the poverty.
But yeah, we would have pillowcases. And I think those pillowcases actually only came out at Christmas, too, if I remember correctly.
[00:29:23] Speaker A: Very special Christmas pillowcases.
[00:29:24] Speaker B: But yeah, it was quite amazing. You'd have and I remember one thing I remember as a kid, I don't know about you, but I remember I would really struggle to go to sleep on Christmas night or Christmas Eve. Christmas Eve, I wanted to be awake.
Yeah, funny.
[00:29:41] Speaker A: Ready for the excitement.
[00:29:42] Speaker B: I went through a phase. I don't know how you found this, but I went through a phase where after I left home, when I first left home, I was a bit older, so I wasn't a kid anymore. It wasn't like I happily go to sleep on Christmas Eve. I actually found for a while, Christmas was a bit I don't know, it wasn't something yeah. I went through a period, I wouldn't say lonely, but when I was flatting, I remember this. You're like, okay, Christmas Eve, things are shut, there wasn't much on. Then you'd go to see your family and then you'd leave your family and you would go back to a very quiet flat often or it was funny. I went through a period where it wasn't quite the same with that middle, sort of through my 20s, probably. Then when we got married and it became a thing, a really good thing again. And having kids in particular, it's taken on a whole new life for me.
[00:30:35] Speaker A: It's quite different with kids.
[00:30:37] Speaker B: Yeah. There's a real joy and I love watching them.
[00:30:40] Speaker A: You love seeing what presents they get.
Surprised to you, too.
[00:30:44] Speaker B: To be fair, this year I have contributed a good present. We weren't saying just because our daughter listens to this, it's going to get this, she's going to be pretty happy. But anyway, yeah, I saw a great meme the other day with baby Yoda and old Yoda. So baby Yoda just looking on, and it's like Mum watching kids open their presents. And then there's the old Yoda when he's got that surprise look on his face, and it's like every dad watching their kids open their presents, because I didn't know you're getting that. It's true.
In our family, though, here, the Malone family, we've got a few traditions that we've developed.
We do the thing the present thing in the morning.
[00:31:23] Speaker A: Obviously do. Going to mass.
[00:31:24] Speaker B: We haven't mentioned going to Mass. You're going to church.
[00:31:26] Speaker A: We've boasted as children as well.
[00:31:27] Speaker B: Yeah, but that's hugely important. Our family, we have Advent really as part of the mix, too. So Advent is obviously the season that leads up to Christmas, but we have Advent very much as a thing that we do. Right. And we have a little pin board with a picture that I drew with a marker pen in the middle, if you've ever seen a good News Bible. And the illustrations they have in those, that's where I got it from. And it's Jesus and he's in Mary's womb. So Joseph and Mary on the donkey in the middle, drawn in the middle. And then we have these Christmas trees that are numbered. That cardboard Christmas trees that are numbered. And each night of Advent, after our family prayers, we put another one on the board. We have the Advent wreath. And this was pretty yeah. And it was actually pretty creative. I found one of those artificial Christmas door wreaths at the warehouse. If you're overseas, it's probably like Kmart or Walmart Kohl's or Target or something. Yeah, Walmart. And so one of those artificial Christmas wreaths and I found a metal framed four candle candle holder. But they were in an almost circular shape, but not quite. So once you put there and it fit perfectly, the wreath fits perfectly around the outside of it. And so they're in a circle, as they should be. Four candles. And we have a big white candle for Christmas Day in the middle. And it was all created on the fly for wasn't much at all.
[00:32:51] Speaker A: If you're listening, you know that Brennan's the creative person in our family.
[00:32:55] Speaker B: And Katie likes a bargain. So the two things came together so well. Creative bargain. Advent, Candle.
[00:33:01] Speaker A: That's our family tradition.
[00:33:03] Speaker B: Yeah. So that sits in the middle of our table, and we light those during Advent each week. And then we of course, we don't light those on Christmas Day. We light the big white candle for Jesus. So there's traditions like that, eh? And the kids are right into it.
Yeah.
[00:33:19] Speaker A: We have a tradition of going to see the Christmas lights yeah. Before Christmas around our neighborhood.
[00:33:25] Speaker B: There's lots of lights we put up either putting up the Christmas tree.
[00:33:28] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:33:29] Speaker B: First Sunday of Advent. Don't go too early, folks. First Sunday of Advent is the correct time to be doing it. So we do that. And this year was different. The kids actually led the charge. Our eldest daughter, Lucy.
[00:33:40] Speaker A: Totally.
[00:33:40] Speaker B: It was so cool.
And watching them do it wasn't even too much fighting. No. And we just sat back.
[00:33:46] Speaker A: Nathaniel put himself in charge of the back side of the Christmas tree, which I was like, that's a good decision.
[00:33:55] Speaker B: So funny. So there you go. Yeah. I think the dangers a that you've got to avoid is two things just to wrap this up with is consumerism. And I think we are now trying to do it work a little bit harder on that, aren't we sort of trying to get into that and helping our kids to see it's not about a million presents, trying to give them maybe one or two more meaningful presents and not lots of stuff as a consumer exercise.
[00:34:21] Speaker A: Yeah, that's right.
[00:34:23] Speaker B: Not easy though.
[00:34:25] Speaker A: No, it's not very much pushed. The Christmas shopping. And something that drives me absolutely crazy is the whole twelve days of Christmas, the secular consumer version, which is apparently according to them, the twelve days of shopping before Christmas, which isn't in Christian Catholic terms, it's the twelve days between Christmas. And that's the epiphany.
[00:34:45] Speaker B: Yeah. It's Christmas. Tide.
[00:34:46] Speaker A: Christmas tide. It's the Christmas season. So evidence actually, let me stop you.
[00:34:51] Speaker B: There because Christmas tide actually goes all the way to the baptism of our Lord, which is the week after the epiphany. But the octave, right, the first eight days are big, not twelve days of pre Christmas Advent shopping.
[00:35:05] Speaker A: It's not about shopping.
[00:35:07] Speaker B: Which brings me to the second point actually, because you and I have had this conversation about this recently. I would describe this now a little bit like and I'm starting to get my head around this a bit more, it's a bit like there's a danger here that Christmas Day is a bit like a wedding. Now, often weddings are this overpriced thing that people fixate on the party and it puts all this pressure on, particularly financially. But I think also on certain members of the household, probably predominantly mums to perform, to deliver.
And I've only really recently come to appreciate this and you've highlighted for me how particularly mums, it's not the dads are going, yeah, I love Christmas Day, it's amazing. And Mum's like, yeah, but I've got to do all this work and you're not helping.
[00:35:50] Speaker A: And it's not just Christmas Day, the work starts. Yeah, I was just wrapping presents the other day. The work starts a lot before Christmas.
[00:35:58] Speaker B: Yeah. It's funny. So Dads, there's a challenge for us to step up. Step up, not be neglectful and not forget that on the day we've changed.
[00:36:06] Speaker A: Our schedule, mum might not be enjoying it as much as everybody else. Remember that?
[00:36:10] Speaker B: Yeah, it's so true. And it's funny. I don't know, I guess how do you avoid that trap? I don't know. I think part of it's maybe planning and being more intentional and also listening.
[00:36:23] Speaker A: To each other sharing the load of it. I think one thing that is quite special to me in my family that we used to do was we'd all sit down like morning tea time ish, have a cup of coffee, have a Christmas mince pie or a piece of cake. That's when we did presents. And the present giving time was really important to me. And I remember being horrified in your family one year when we all went to your mum's house and it was just like this massive present bun fight.
[00:36:45] Speaker B: Oh, yeah.
[00:36:46] Speaker A: And it was like flying all over.
[00:36:48] Speaker B: The it was like that scene from Gremlin.
[00:36:50] Speaker A: Nobody got to say a chance to say thank you. We've been quite intentional with that.
[00:36:53] Speaker B: You do one at a time.
[00:36:54] Speaker A: One at a time, and someone plays.
[00:36:56] Speaker B: Satan Claws or Santa's elf and they go under the tree and they get a little present and we all watch.
That's the way it should be.
[00:37:03] Speaker A: Yeah. For me, that feels more it's important to acknowledge that you've been given something. And it's not just, how fast can I rip the wrapping paper off? How many things?
[00:37:12] Speaker B: Yeah, right. What's my next thing? Because our kids it's funny, I've noticed that. And we'd really try to train that out of our kids. They're like, yeah, but what's my next present?
[00:37:19] Speaker A: I haven't got that many Michael McIntyre bit on.
[00:37:25] Speaker B: Michael McIntyre.
Michael McIntyre. Yeah. The comedian.
[00:37:29] Speaker A: I was just having a mind blank. He does a bit on that.
[00:37:32] Speaker B: That's what happens if you listen to too much Michael McIntyre.
[00:37:35] Speaker A: No matter how old you are, at the end of Christmas Day, you all pick up your things to your room. My stuff, these are my things, these are my presents. There's truth in it's, a bit of that, eh? It doesn't matter if you're eight or 80, everybody does it.
[00:37:48] Speaker B: Yeah, it's funny, isn't it? Yeah, it is true.
[00:37:51] Speaker A: Unless you're a mum, because then you might get one thing or maybe two.
[00:37:55] Speaker B: And speaking of, could you tell me what you think ladies of your particular persuasion might like for Christmas? I'm asking for a friend.
No. Why would you?
[00:38:05] Speaker A: They definitely don't want dressing gowns.
[00:38:07] Speaker B: No. And I don't do that. I don't do that and they don't want I do alcohol and chocolate. Yeah, that's a safe option.
[00:38:14] Speaker A: Alcohol is pretty good.
[00:38:15] Speaker B: You got a good voucher last year.
[00:38:16] Speaker A: That you only just spent all year to spend it.
[00:38:19] Speaker B: I was thinking about a really cool present this year, but then I realized, with COVID things and restrictions, it kind of got a bit stabbed. Trust me, it would have been the most amazing Christmas ever. You would have loved it. I can't tell you what it is.
[00:38:30] Speaker A: I would love to see look on your face when you open that.
[00:38:32] Speaker B: Yeah, it would have been amazing. We won't be seeing so you just pretend?
[00:38:35] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:38:39] Speaker B: It's that consumerism, you're, your family. I remember that. That deliberate approach, one present at a time. Everyone observing and participating and sharing in the joy.
[00:38:47] Speaker A: Sharing the joy, yeah, it's about sharing the joy. And I think, especially as our kids get older, we haven't been as good about Secret Santa with them this year, but one of our daughters has gone all our days. She's wrapped up a whole lot of stuff that she's made, like she's been making presents because she's a real gift. Giver her brothers and sisters. Open those. It's important that that's acknowledged the effort she's gone to.
[00:39:11] Speaker B: Yeah. It wasn't like, oh, here's the really expensive flash commercial gifts and then here's the other rubbish that someone made.
You don't tolerate it, you celebrate it. Yeah. There you go, folks. So the consumerism is a trap. The stress of the day. Blokes, step up. Or vice versa. It might be the other way around.
[00:39:29] Speaker A: Sometimes it's the dad 100%.
[00:39:31] Speaker B: So mums talk with each other.
What's the famous question that you can keep asking on the day?
[00:39:37] Speaker A: That, what can I do to help?
[00:39:39] Speaker B: Yeah. Bingo. That's been my bacon saver at times.
[00:39:42] Speaker A: Where'd you learn that from?
[00:39:44] Speaker B: I married a good woman who was.
[00:39:46] Speaker A: Dad used to say it all the time.
[00:39:49] Speaker B: Exactly. Your dad used to say it. Your dad's a good man. Like that who was also unafraid. I married a good woman who was unafraid to school her husband to train him in the ways he must still grow custom.
[00:40:00] Speaker A: It's a long education.
[00:40:02] Speaker B: Yeah, it is still going. So once a year I ask, how may I help this year?
So there you go.
[00:40:11] Speaker A: That's Christmas, I think also to remember, somebody said to me recently, how do we celebrate Christmas amongst all that busyness? Like, it does feel like the day gets lost. But I think it's important to remember it's not just one day. Like, I know, friends, I'm not this amazing and I don't know if I have the energy for it, but I know a couple of families that do one gift a day between Christmas and the epiphany to celebrate the whole season so that they only get one on Christmas. They don't get a whole bunch and sometimes it's just a little thing and one of the days is like, intentionally.
[00:40:38] Speaker B: Like, where do they get that from?
[00:40:40] Speaker A: It's an old tradition.
[00:40:41] Speaker B: Probably some Eastern Orthodox. I think it's orthodox.
[00:40:43] Speaker A: I don't know. But the epiphany was a traditional gift giving time, right?
So it's remembering that and remembering and acknowledging that the reason we have presents is not as, because, yes, Christ was the best gift of all, but it's also because he was given gifts as well, and they were quite symbolic. So they have one day where the fifth day of Christmas or whatever is like the handmade gift. So everybody gives each other a handmade gift. So that's quite good. Yeah. And they're not like all massive things, like, they might only be worth a handmade gift.
[00:41:16] Speaker B: Gosh, that's good. What would I hand make here's? A toilet roll.
It's a horse made of toilet roll.
Unicorn. Yeah. Gosh, that's good.
[00:41:30] Speaker A: I've quite got the energy for but I like that they acknowledge that the Christmas goes for longer and to remember that and then that's why we have that's.
[00:41:36] Speaker B: What I was about to say is, in actual fact, in our house now, in our family, christmas was traditionally in my family was sort of what's, over after Christmas Day, boxing Day gone. But in actual fact, we have the full Christmas feast, and our family, the Malone family here with us, you and I, is that it goes right up until the baptism of our Lord, which is two weeks after. So there's a Sunday after Christmas is the feast of the Holy Family. The next Sunday is the Epiphany, and then the third Sunday is the baptism of our Lord, and that's the end of Christmas. So we have the whole shebang.
[00:42:13] Speaker A: And you can listen to Christmas hymns the whole time.
[00:42:15] Speaker B: Yeah. Katie loves that.
[00:42:16] Speaker A: What's your favorite?
[00:42:16] Speaker B: No? Wham oh, good question. Well, there's a couple I really cling to the Feast of the Holy Innocence, which is the 20 eigth of December, which is not a great celebration, really. It's the memorial of when Herod killed all the young children. For me in my pro life work, it has a lot of important significance. But I love that the Coventry Carol that was written for that. That is just it's powerful. It brings me to tears. Christmas. Good question.
I'm a bit of a fan for Christmas songs and carols. Like I like the Michael Burblay, the Frank Sinatra type stuff. The crooners who sang Christmas songs. Christmas carols, though. Hmm. I love Silent Night. I think that's Silent Night, there's something about that for me that I really love.
[00:43:04] Speaker A: I'm going to see if you can guess what mine is, because I have told you many times. Can you remember?
[00:43:09] Speaker B: Is it? Oh, holy night.
[00:43:10] Speaker A: Although I do love that one. I told you my favorite.
[00:43:14] Speaker B: Good king went slough. No.
Is it? We three kings.
[00:43:22] Speaker A: Oh, honey.
[00:43:23] Speaker B: What is it?
[00:43:24] Speaker A: The Herald Angel?
[00:43:25] Speaker B: Yeah. No, I knew that you meant oh, carols. You like I just thought yeah, I did. Yes, I did know that. And I know that your other favorite hymn is Hail Redempt King Divine, isn't it? Yeah. And just that's not a Christmas one, obviously. Tim yeah.
[00:43:46] Speaker A: Just trying to prove that you know something.
[00:43:47] Speaker B: Yeah, I did know that. I did know hark. The Herald angel sing. So you'd be pleased to know that's on the list. I'm music at our Christmas use my Sway services, and it's on the list.
This is the thing. So that's another tradition for us is that Christmas goes longer and epiphany. We have the Epiphany chalking above the doors. If you don't know what that is, look it up. It's a traditional Christian tradition. You put a chalk above the door for each initial for the three wise kings, plus the year that it is. And you pray a little blessing of your family home. It's really quite a cool thing to do. Yeah. So yeah, it's funny. And by the way, even all the Protestants who are listening in, I love it how you join us crazy Catholics. And Christmas is the one time of year all of a sudden, like, all these icons and Christmas trees and things that you know about them, statues. You Catholics, you join us in all that fun and festivities. So it's great. Yeah, it's a good thing. Long may it live. It's a very ecommunical it's a very ecommunical matter. A very good one. So there you go, consumerism. Avoid that trap. Don't put pressure on people. And maybe just if you need to empty out the day a bit. Because one thing we've noticed is let's not try and see all the family on Christmas Day. Maybe let's make one of those trips Boxing Day or Christmas Eve. You can spread the load. So there you go.
Lots to celebrate at Christmas home.
Right. That piece of music means that it's time for this month's moment of goodness, Truth or beauty. Katie, what is your am I going first? Yeah. Well, ladies first. I'm a gentleman. Ladies first. What is your moment of I had.
[00:45:36] Speaker A: To think hard about this because I feel like this month has kind of evaporated.
[00:45:39] Speaker B: Oh, yeah, it has. Gosh, it's disappeared, isn't it?
[00:45:42] Speaker A: And obviously it's evaporated a little bit with the whole COVID.
Things just keep on rolling with that, don't they? But mine is a little bit COVID related, so sorry.
So, as you know, I'm on a team that organizes an annual Catholic summer school. And unfortunately, for the first time in 30 years this year, we've had to cancel because of all the stuff with the COVID But funnily enough, it has been my moment of goodness, truth and beauty. Because even though it was such a hard decision, the right decision, but the hard decision to make as a team, I think the team themselves really showed their metal and showed their planning team, leadership team in the way. That we handled the decision to cancel and also the way that the team kept working right up until the last possible minute to manage.
[00:46:36] Speaker B: You were saying that to me and I was just thinking about that. It's so beautiful because everything that it seems of late has been just so angry and hostile and very confrontational and divisional. Everyone takes a side and very polarized. But this was amazing.
[00:46:54] Speaker A: It was just and obviously it was very sad. We're not happy that we've had to cancel it, but I think I would acknowledge the work they've done. And also there wasn't side taking, there was just trying to make the right decision.
That's beautiful and that's hard, given that they've spent the whole year working towards something that now isn't going to happen. So when you have to go and then call it off, that's pretty rough.
[00:47:18] Speaker B: Good point. Well said. Mine isn't so much a moment, it's actually a quote that we're allowed to do quotes. Well, you can do quotes. News to me isn't a moment of broad term, though. Did you have a moment? What is your moment of well, I'm about to give you a moment by.
[00:47:34] Speaker A: Reading you came up with the moment.
[00:47:35] Speaker B: Of yeah, moment of goodness, truth, or beauty when we should have said, what is your thing or moment or quote your thing of goodness, truth, or beauty. So for me, it was actually a quote that really struck me and gave me it did give me a moment of goodness, truth and beauty. But also I thought I'd like to share it and it's very relevant. It comes from Pope Benedict XVI, the previous Catholic pope, and it's a beautiful quote from him about Christmas and Jesus. And it goes like this. God's sign is simplicity. God's sign is the baby. God's sign is that he makes himself small for us. This is how he reigns. He does not come with power and outward splendor. He comes as a baby, defenseless and in need of our help. He does not want to overwhelm us with his strength. He takes away our fear of his greatness. God made himself small so that we could understand Him, welcome Him, and love Him. And I think there's something really beautiful.
[00:48:33] Speaker A: About that that's absolutely beautiful that makes me think of this tiny poem.
[00:48:36] Speaker B: Hold on, hold on.
[00:48:37] Speaker A: Now, have we got two moments? And then I'm going to have another moment after that.
[00:48:41] Speaker B: Please.
[00:48:42] Speaker A: Actually, three.
[00:48:44] Speaker B: Merry Christmas.
[00:48:45] Speaker A: You have the title? I do.
This is a poem that I saw on the Instagram.
The youth call it the insta.
Just called birth. And it's this the cosmos shaper has come down to earth. Mary is counting his fingers and toes.
That's the whole poem.
[00:49:04] Speaker B: What sort of poem would you call that?
[00:49:06] Speaker A: A couplet I don't know. Two lines.
[00:49:08] Speaker B: So read it again. Read it again.
[00:49:09] Speaker A: The cosmos shaper has come down to earth. Mary is counting his fingers and toes.
[00:49:14] Speaker B: Wow.
[00:49:15] Speaker A: Isn't that beautiful?
[00:49:15] Speaker B: That is profound, isn't it?
[00:49:17] Speaker A: I've just been reading that this week and just reflecting on that.
[00:49:19] Speaker B: That is yeah.
[00:49:21] Speaker A: The Beauty of Benedict was yeah, that is beautiful.
[00:49:27] Speaker B: I mean, way better than my short poem, too, which is rose of red, violets of blue, I've got a gun, get in the van.
Kids laugh every time I say that.
See, that is beautiful. That is beautiful.
[00:49:38] Speaker A: But it makes me think also something that I was thinking about in church the other day where I was three. I know three. No one's counting moments because I didn't know I was. Loud quotes.
I was thinking in church the other day, I said this to you on Sunday about how hard it's been this year with all the COVID stuff and mass will church not being what it normally is and being a bit separate and all the hard feeling around that, that it felt quite narnian to me, the whole as in Chronicle always winter and never Christmas. And I think that the world kind of feels that way. There's quite a heaviness of like, oh, we're trying to have Christmas, trying so hard. People have been getting vaccinated so we can have Christmas and everything's about having a summer and having our fun times and being free and all that.
But it sort of flipped for me in church to a reminder that as Christians, we have Christmas in our hearts. We know the birth of Jesus is one of the most important mysteries of our faith and that he can come regardless. He has come, and he will continue to come regardless.
[00:50:44] Speaker B: Imagine what it was to be a Christian in Cuba under Castro who banned Christmas.
[00:50:50] Speaker A: Exactly.
[00:50:51] Speaker B: What do you do? That's fascinating, isn't it? That's a good point. You still celebrate.
[00:50:54] Speaker A: We've got to hold on to that. That Christmas is still the most important mystery of Christmas still happens.
[00:51:01] Speaker B: Beautiful. Absolutely beautiful.
[00:51:02] Speaker A: Sorry, those are all my moments.
[00:51:04] Speaker B: Three of them.
[00:51:04] Speaker A: I'll probably have none next time.
[00:51:08] Speaker B: More than I tapped out for moments. But anyway, there was our moment of goodness, truth, and beauty, right? Our scripture reflection for the month.
You can go first again if you oh, no, I'm being pointed, so I'll go first. So here's my scripture reflection just in case. The month. It's from the book of Isaiah, chapter one, verse 17. It's something that has long been important to me, the Scripture, and has been a guiding light for me. But of late, in the current circumstances, it feels like it has a particularly meaningful depth and poignance and importance for the situation we find ourselves in of late. And it's, as I said, Isaiah, chapter one, verse 17, and it says this learn to do right, seek justice, encourage the oppressed, defend the cause of the fatherless, and plead the case of the widow. And I think two things. One is, going into Christmas, think about those who perhaps are marginalized, who are alone, who are isolated, who often sort of they don't have family to go to, they're forgotten in the midst of Christmas celebrations. And then also, secondly, in the light of sort of there's a whole lot of vaccine stuff going on. There's people being marginalized, and people have lost jobs. And think about those people in that.
I think it's a very, very important reminder that our existence, and particularly if you're going to build a culture, a counterculture of goodness, truth and beauty, it's always outward focused. It's self giving love. It's not self gratification. And this scripture really speaks to me how important that is.
[00:52:43] Speaker A: Yeah, mine's a little bit similar, but it's from Philippians, chapter four, verse eight. Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is just, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is gracious, if there is any excellence, and if there is anything worthy of praise, think about these things. And that just for me, was just focusing on the things that are of God, especially in our discernment around all the things that are going on, that we have to seek the right thing, do the next right thing, even if. It's hard.
[00:53:19] Speaker B: Yeah. There's always one more thing you can do.
[00:53:20] Speaker A: Right.
[00:53:21] Speaker B: What's the next right thing to do? The thing that's in front of Jesus wants you to yeah. Yeah, that's it. It's the thing that's in front of you. I remember a great quote years ago about in fact, I think it was a Catholic priest, but he said, I used to think that all the challenges and obstacles in my life were things that had to be got over before I could get to living real life. So whether I just had to pass this exam or I just have to cook this meal, or then I can live real life. And then he says, but then it dawned on me, those challenges, those obstacles, they are my life. They're not the thing to get over and get into real life. They are my life. That's where it's lived. All righty, time for listener questions. Now. We've got three that we want to touch on. A huge thank you for those who've sent them into us. Don't forget, as I said, there is a link for the Google form, totally anonymous. You can send us and we don't read out names or any of that sort of stuff, totally anonymous. You can send us your questions and topics that you'd like us to cover. You can find that Google form at the top of the
[email protected]. NZ. That's lifenet.org. NZ there's a link in the show notes at the very top of the page. There's a button you'll see there for the Little Flock question form. And you can submit your questions there. But a huge thank you to the people who have sent us these questions. And the first one is this. Can Christian couples do ministry work and raise kids? What does that look like? So, ministry work is working for the church and in a ministry capacity. So it's more probably pastoral work, not just doing the accountancy work for the church, which is probably nine to five. It's more of the ministry space. Maybe it's youth ministry, maybe it's a music ministry gig. Maybe it's what I do.
Formation and education and speaking at conferences. It could be any number of reasons. But can Christian couples do ministry work and raise kids? What does that look like? What are your thoughts on that, Katie?
[00:55:13] Speaker A: I think they absolutely can.
[00:55:15] Speaker B: Well, we're doing that, right.
[00:55:16] Speaker A: That doesn't mean every couple should.
[00:55:18] Speaker B: Yeah, good point.
[00:55:19] Speaker A: Yeah. Because I think your first ministry is to your family. If you're in a Christian marriage or.
[00:55:24] Speaker B: In a marriageful study, first and most important vacation right. Is to your wife or to your husband or and to your children.
[00:55:30] Speaker A: Yeah, 100%. So it needs to be imbalanced with that. What does it look like?
It looks like give and take, right? Yeah.
[00:55:40] Speaker B: Balance.
[00:55:40] Speaker A: And it looks different in different seasons.
[00:55:41] Speaker B: You've mentioned balance.
[00:55:42] Speaker A: That's part of definitely, yeah. So until recently, you were doing most of the ministry you still are in.
[00:55:53] Speaker B: Our yeah, so for those who don't know, Katie and I have a ministry I run the director of the LifeNet Charitable Trust. We're both in it together and I always talk about it and everywhere. If you've read any of our newsletters or stuff like that, you'll know, Katie and I talk about this is our thing. But yeah, so I'm the director of that trust and I work full time in that space, speaking at conferences, churches, universities and lots of other things too, providing formation and training, particularly in marriage, family, pro life, sexuality issues. So just the non controversial stuff, easy topics. And yes, there's a bit of travel and a bit of not as much.
[00:56:38] Speaker A: Travel lately, which has been nice. Yeah, for a while there was a lot.
[00:56:42] Speaker B: Well, that was a challenge. Right. Yeah, and I think this is something in my response to this I'd say you have to be careful with it.
[00:56:48] Speaker A: Yes, you do.
[00:56:48] Speaker B: I made a determination a few years ago I was not going to be that guy who traveled around New Zealand and Australia because I did, you know, preaching up a storm about the importance of marriage and family and goodness, truth and beauty. And then I was going to be the guy who sacrificed my marriage and my family, my wife and my kids, on the altar of that sort of prideful, ego driven sort of approach to things. And my kids would become resentful. My wife would feel abandoned and then probably guilty for feeling abandoned, thinking, oh, no, he's doing the Lord's work.
COVID has helped, I think, to really cement that even more because you can't.
[00:57:29] Speaker A: Go anywhere yeah, that's right, you're always.
[00:57:31] Speaker B: Here, time for you to go now but yeah, I think that's an absolute challenge. So balance and prioritizing.
[00:57:39] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:57:40] Speaker B: If both of you are in ministry we are at the moment, yeah, that's.
[00:57:42] Speaker A: Right, I got that actually when I read this question, then I had to.
[00:57:45] Speaker B: Remind myself so I've got my full time LifeNet ministry work that's full time. It is full on and it is full time and then you've got a voluntary Apostolate or ministry work that you're involved in a senior leadership role. The heart slung Catholic summers could be talked about yeah, we did that too, together. I was the director of that team for about twelve years, I think it was twelve or 1312 years and every summer that was our family life and you were involved in that as well.
[00:58:13] Speaker A: But we had the summer, yeah.
[00:58:15] Speaker B: So we are a ministry family, we're almost like missionary family in some sense.
[00:58:19] Speaker A: Yes, well, New Zealand's mission territory.
[00:58:21] Speaker B: Yeah, but yeah, I think the other thing too is finances.
[00:58:27] Speaker A: How do you mean?
[00:58:28] Speaker B: Well, you've got to factor that and be prudent about that, particularly in a small country like ours what does that look like, to do full time ministry? How do you pay the mortgage or the rent and feed your kids and not sacrifice that, but at the same time, how do you have faith and say, okay, well, we're going to step out in faith? Even if we don't quite have all the money, and we're going to be willing to perhaps forego, I don't know, a second car or a batch or whatever in order to make that sacrifice to do the Ministry calling. It's not an easy there's no silver bullet here, there's no magic equation where you sit down and work it all out and go, I know the answer, but there is a danger here that things can get out of kilter.
[00:59:08] Speaker A: Yeah. I think in our experience, God's always looked after us, right? Yeah. Because you've been doing this for a long time now. Yeah. We don't have all the fancy bells and whistles or anything, but we have been looked after, we've had kids, have had good experiences, we've got a roof over our heads.
[00:59:24] Speaker B: Yeah. God has been good. Has been good.
[00:59:26] Speaker A: And I think that's amongst earthquakes and pandemics yeah.
[00:59:30] Speaker B: It's funny, isn't it?
I think part of it's longevity and I think when I first started, I thought it was going to be a bit easier up front, but it gets easier as you go if you commit to the work.
What I mean by that is, now that we've been in this full time for almost 18 years, that's quite amazing, isn't it? Almost 20 years we're closing in on there. So it has been 18 years, hasn't it? 18 years this October or November it might have been, even if not very close to that. So what that means is that now you do have to do a bit of hard work up front and make sacrifices and now we've got into a rhythm with that, if you like.
The hard work is sort of, I won't say paid off, it's not a monetary thing, but you know what you're doing a bit more.
[01:00:27] Speaker A: That's right, yeah. And I think as far as raising kids go, I mean, it kind of depends if they're stepping I think stepping into it with kids already might be a bit harder if you're stepping into full time ministry.
I have a friend who talks about her dad used to be very involved with the church and he decided to pull back when the kids were a certain age because he felt like he just wasn't present enough. Remember, he's going to meetings every night and there was quite a lot of demand. This particular group was making a lot of demands on his time and he just realized that actually his teenage daughters needed him at home for a bit and that he had to step back just for a time.
[01:01:05] Speaker B: Yeah, that's a good point.
[01:01:06] Speaker A: So there are seasons where you need to be discerning and say, is this the right time for both of us to be doing ministry? Or just even one of us. Sometimes you've got other things in your life and you can't give from a place of emptiness or a place of even negative.
[01:01:22] Speaker B: Well, there's a point there, too, I think, for churches and ministry leaders who might be listening, is that the people you call on and you rely on the same people? Yeah, just don't forget, if you're calling on married people, you got to be careful. And I've seen that, and that's one of my dangers, right? Because I've got a few gifts that I can offer the church. So often what happens is, because you've got more than one gift, you're the person people expect you to exercise all.
[01:01:42] Speaker A: Top of the phone tree.
[01:01:43] Speaker B: He can do music, get him to do oh, he can lead, get him to that. He can do video work for us, get him to do that. And I struggle to say no at times, I'm getting better at that. But yes, that's the key, really, isn't it? You keep praying about it, you keep looking at it, keep communicating with each other. And here's one thing I've always said to people. I remember a couple of married friends of ours who said to me, well, if you were my husband, Brendan, I wouldn't be married to you because I wouldn't let you began. No, they said, if I was married to you, I wouldn't be letting you go away. And all those trips, I don't know how your wife does it. And my first thought is always in my head, well, that's why I'm not married to you, and B, who said, I'd want to marry you?
Yeah, but A, I was like, well, that's clearly know, god puts people together, the right people.
[01:02:26] Speaker A: That's right.
[01:02:27] Speaker B: But I've always said that, and I've consistently said this. Katie and I are in it together, even like so that's why I'm very deliberate about talking about LifeNet as our ministry, even though I'm the guy who does the bulk of all of that work, because her commitment to that is phenomenal. And it's the stuff that makes my really humble work possible, is all the hard work that she's doing behind the scenes, she's got to wear a lot and she's got to accept a lot. So as a wife, she's got to accept, well, we're not going to have a batch on the coast because we're not going to be rich in this ministry. If you're rich in ministry, something's going wrong, I think.
And I've always said, well, are you.
[01:03:08] Speaker A: Not manifesting us a batch?
[01:03:11] Speaker B: I claim it. I name it and claim it with that shed out the back. That's our batch. I named it, claimed it, so a few pot plants, who would know?
And also the travel and stuff. And so if you said to me one day I've always had this agreement, I've always been very upfront about this, that if you came to me and said, look, no, it's just too much, then I would hang up my hat or I'd readjust in a major way whatever I needed to do, because that's my first and most important vocation.
[01:03:37] Speaker A: That's right. So don't ever sacrifice that marriage.
[01:03:39] Speaker B: Yeah. And the danger is, a lot of people in church circles, we tend to hyperglamorize and spiritualize ministry and forget about our other vocational roles.
Here's the thing, though. It's both end, I think, because the flip side I've encountered is some people who are like, oh, no, I can't do anything because I'm a husband and father, I'm a wife and mother. And it's like, well, we could do something even and still be good mothers and fathers without sacrificing.
[01:04:06] Speaker A: Ministry doesn't always look like meetings every week, events all the time. Ministry can look like going to a prayer group and being available for someone to talk to if they need it, being open to people. I mean, I had that experience every week. So on the receiving end and the giving end of that. So, yeah, ministry can just be being present to your community. Right. And being a part of that community.
[01:04:28] Speaker B: Well, Christmas Day for some of our friends and family is going to be specific ministry to a vulnerable community in our neighborhood. And for us, it's going to be a ministry thing where we're going to be opening up our home to someone who is in need, who has nowhere else to go. So there's a ministry, but it's all very beautiful and ordinary.
It's not hyper spiritualized.
[01:04:46] Speaker A: So you don't need to go looking for some big glamorous ministry. Ask the Lord to show you, where is my ministry? Maybe it's just a little one.
[01:04:53] Speaker B: And do the work of God in front of you like you were just saying.
[01:04:56] Speaker A: Yeah.
[01:04:57] Speaker B: Second question here is when your child says no, our children never say no.
That's a yes, mother, how may I assist you? They come to us and they ask, how may I help?
[01:05:10] Speaker A: How may I do something?
[01:05:11] Speaker B: Beating my brother.
Now, when your child says no, and they are too big to drag to their commitment. So I guess this is a child, maybe, who's got a sports team.
[01:05:23] Speaker A: Drag them where the rubber hits the road with parenting. You get here, just do make them do what you want them to do.
[01:05:28] Speaker B: You're going to do what I tell you to do, boy. Yeah. So when they're too big to drag to their commitment, how do we parent beyond threats? This is quite a classic question.
[01:05:37] Speaker A: Great one.
[01:05:39] Speaker B: I can hear a bit of pain in this. Someone's like, how do we parent beyond the threats?
[01:05:43] Speaker A: Well, okay, my first point of advice is if you're making threats, make them realistic. One of Brendan's favourite threats is, I'm going to leave you here. And I always say, you can't do that because they know you're not going to carry through. So if you're going to use a threat, make it one.
[01:05:57] Speaker B: They know you I'll be canceling Christmas.
[01:05:58] Speaker A: Day this year, such as there will be no iPad time or there will be no such and such. You got to earn, goals have to.
[01:06:07] Speaker B: Be manageable and achievable. Threats have to be manageable and achievable.
[01:06:10] Speaker A: So we need to stop saying we're going to leave you here because it's all going to happen.
I just had this experience last night actually with Eleanor who was having a real she's six and she was having just we had a couple, everybody had a moment yesterday I think it was know, end of term and we're all tired. One of those days, lots of emotion with school wrapping up and it being a bit weird and not the same.
[01:06:30] Speaker B: One of them days of the COVID Yeah, it was.
[01:06:34] Speaker A: Do you know what? I think at the end of the she was very tired and probably a bit hungry. And one thing I've really learned with her is if she's planting her feet and saying no or throwing a complete tantrum over two crackers or whatever it was, she actually just needs some time in. And she needs me to sit and just take that time with her and give her a cuddle, and we just sit and she totally diffuses. Sometimes it takes five minutes, sometimes it takes 20 so you've got to have the time for it.
So if it's time sensitive, that might not work.
[01:07:03] Speaker B: Well I'm thinking of the question of a bigger a bigger teenage kid. What if it's older? Well I guess for me, I think one thing we're very clear on in our house in fact in the last couple of days we've had a few incidents like this where we've had to say no, the commitment is X, Y and Z. We see our commitments through.
[01:07:21] Speaker A: Yes.
[01:07:22] Speaker B: So I would really encourage that don't let your children commit to something up front and then abandon the commitment because you are forming a habit of virtue in them or a habit of vice and it is not a virtue to walk away from a commitment that you've made. If you're walking away from something like that it should be serious enough to warrant walking away. Good reason not. I don't want to do this anymore.
[01:07:43] Speaker A: Like for instance when Lucy was about how old was she? Maybe twelve when she wanted to. Well, maybe a bit younger. Ten when she was doing drama. And then the teacher changed half of the term and she did not see eye to eye with the new teacher. She really wasn't enjoying it anymore. But there were only about three weeks to go and extracurricular played up in the class. And the teacher emailed us and said if she's really not she's been playing up, she's causing some problems.
She wasn't being really naughty but she was sort of leading other people astray with her strong leadership that we talked about earlier. Yeah, leadership and he said, oh, we'll give you a refund if you want to pull her out for the rest of the term. And we emailed back and said she's going to see the term through. We've paid. And further to that, she'll be coming in to apologize next week.
[01:08:29] Speaker B: Yeah.
[01:08:30] Speaker A: To which he responded, I am so surprised.
I never get parents saying this to me.
[01:08:36] Speaker B: Yeah, that's crazy.
[01:08:37] Speaker A: And I took her a march the next week and she apologized and then she behaved herself for the last three weeks of term, and then that was that. And we let her finish. But she had to learn that as parents, we'd made that commitment for the term, and we don't treat adults that are giving of their time in that way.
[01:08:53] Speaker B: Yeah, that's important. And we had another incident, actually, with a very mild and tiny moment of shoplifting where someone took a piece, a small lolly, some lollies, a very small thing from a supermarket. And not only did we take it back and pay, but we also made the child involved go and apologize to the manager at the counter or whoever is in charge that day at the counter. And the lady was quite surprised and pleasantly surprised by it, she said, because that doesn't often happen anymore and those moments really matter. So commitments is one of those moments, if it's an obligation, too. So we had an incident even today about school. It's the end of the term. My friends are not turning up. I don't want to go. And we said, no, the commitment is and the obligation here is it doesn't matter what other people are doing. Do what is right. By the end of the time, as she was just leaving, finally, I think it was sinking in beforehand, it was all, Nah, nah, dragon, I'm not even.
[01:09:51] Speaker A: Hungry, I'm not having.
[01:09:53] Speaker B: And then it sunk in. And there was a moment, I saw a recognition when I said to her, and you're going to follow this through and you're going to have a good work ethic and you are going to grow up to be the best lawyer, the best judge, the prime minister of the country one day. And she sort of said, and you.
[01:10:05] Speaker A: Also don't know what God's got in store for you in those situations. Maybe there's someone he wants you to talk to that you haven't had the chance to talk to you. I think it's just helping them to realize, like, every day is an opportunity. Everything that we make you do want of a better phrasing is an opportunity. If there's something like going to church, I think alchemists just know that's non.
[01:10:21] Speaker B: Negotiable not in our house.
[01:10:23] Speaker A: Unless you're sick, you go to mass.
[01:10:26] Speaker B: We've got a habit there, though. That's normal, I think, too.
[01:10:28] Speaker A: They might not be that happy about it. They might be happy about putting on jeans without rips in them.
[01:10:32] Speaker B: Well, I think here's the other thing. I think, depending on what the commitment is, if their commitment is going to let other people down. So they're like it's a team thing or a job, and they don't show up, other people will be bearing their burden. We don't let them opt out. But if it's a thing where basically they have to be at the brunt of their own failures or their own decision making, and they're old enough for that, then we'd probably let them do that. We'd say, okay, well, this is your choice, this is the consequence. You must live with it. So they couldn't then turn around a week later and say, oh, but I didn't go to that commitment that was going to help, I don't know, make this amazing chocolate Christmas tree, but I want to eat the chocolate Christmas tree. How come they're let it no, that's consequence. You chose not to do this thing that you said you would do, and that means you don't get to reap the rewards of it.
[01:11:16] Speaker A: That's right.
[01:11:17] Speaker B: So I think letting them sometimes you've got to let them live or learn by consequences.
[01:11:22] Speaker A: I think it starts when they're young as well. Like, I have the memories of putting a screaming three year old Eleanor in the car naked because she wouldn't get dressed. I just put the clothes in the car and she got dressed when we got there. And you know what? She never did that again. Surprise.
[01:11:34] Speaker B: It only happened once. Yeah. So I think the key thing is I think your threats got to be realistic if you're making them. I think at older age groups, you've got to look at consequences and make them tangible. And then I think you've also got to particularly the older kids, you've got to sit them down and have a conversation about virtue and about living a.
[01:11:51] Speaker A: Moral life in our family.
[01:11:52] Speaker B: Yeah. And what does it mean to be a truly good moral person and that certain things have to be lived out.
[01:11:57] Speaker A: That's right. And you've got to lead by example. So Brennan and I, we make a commitment.
[01:12:02] Speaker B: Yeah.
[01:12:02] Speaker A: We do our absolute best to carry through on it.
[01:12:04] Speaker B: Here's tip I often say this to our kids is I often say, well, in our family, we don't do this, or in our family, we do do this. This is the way we do things in our family. So they know our family has a tradition and an ethos, a culture around them. Yeah. And there's a culture in our family. And so one of the big things was my son. In our family, malone men don't do X, Y and Z, or they do do X, Y and Z. And so Malone men are men of their word. So if they commit to something and they recognize, they sort of take it on as more than just me and my selfish wants in the moment, it's more about who I am and who I'm shaping up to be. Last question for the episode.
This is a pretty hard and intense one, but an important one nonetheless. And we've actually been in situations recently where we've seen this playing out, sadly, but when does the damage to the children, and it's obviously in a marriage of witnessing abuse, probably by one party or the other, outweigh the damage of a broken home, quote, unquote, when do you stop praying for a miracle to happen? And I guess two questions. Yeah. So at what point do you take action and actually move out?
[01:13:07] Speaker A: I think you can take action and keep praying for a miracle.
[01:13:10] Speaker B: Yeah. Both and not either.
Here's what I'd say. First thing for me is I think there's got to be some non negotiables here. If someone is physically abusing you or someone is physically abusing another person, so there's assault of any form happening. Absolute. No, no, you've got to walk away.
Here's the other thing, too, by the way. We tend to think, well, if I walk away, that's permanent, but it's not.
[01:13:32] Speaker A: No, that's right.
[01:13:33] Speaker B: It doesn't have to be a walk away. Can be, I'm leaving this situation, or it can be, I'm leaving for a period of time until you sort your whatever it is out that you need to sort out. And then it might be it might get to a point you realize, no, this person is just too violent and their problems are so deep. So you might have an addict in the home or a person who has such a lack of virtue that their reformation of their behavior is not going to happen quickly, easily. You might actually need to say, this is just too unsafe to ever return to. That could happen, and you've got to do that.
That's the reality.
So there's got to be some non negotiables. So one of them is violence. If someone is being violent, to me, that's an absolute, particularly if it's an established pattern, if it's just a one off thing that maybe happened, or like a minor one off or just a one off thing. I mean, literally, someone's just snapped under pressure.
I want to be careful at Harris, say this, because I don't want to downplay or justify that in any way, because it's still not right and it's not good. But if it was just but if someone's establishing a pattern of behavior, you don't just say, oh, they won't do it next time. They won't do it next time.
Yeah. So that's number one. Number two, I think, is any sort of spiritual, emotional, psychological abuse, the gaslighting, any form of control or dominance or manipulation. No, thanks, dear, you won't have any money. I'll control the money. No, you must get me my tea. And if it's not on the dinner table, I'm not going to talk to you for the next two nights.
[01:15:02] Speaker A: You can't go out and see anybody else.
[01:15:04] Speaker B: Yeah, you're not allowed to see anybody. Those are serious. They are serious, serious issues, folks. And you got to treat them seriously.
They're not light things at all. And particularly, it tends to be men who do this to women. There are some that go the other way, but it tends to be men who do this to women.
If you're a bloke doing that and you think, oh, no, this is me. I'm just the head of the household. I'm in charge of my no. Get your head in the game, boy. That is absolutely wrong.
None of those behaviors should be happening. And I think the danger is we tend to say, well, I'm not being beaten, so maybe I should put up with it.
[01:15:39] Speaker A: Yes, definitely.
Here's what I if you have no financial security on your own, you don't feel that you've got children.
I know we'd say it's not always men that do it, but yeah, that women often feel they can't leave because they don't have a safe place to go, they don't have money to feed their kids.
[01:15:59] Speaker B: Look, I've even said to people, because what we tend to do is we tend to say, well, if it's violence, that's definitely I've got the green light, walk away. Yeah. But if it's just constant psychological abuse or torment or no, I don't have any right to leave. No, that's not true.
[01:16:17] Speaker A: No. And I think if we're talking, especially here about the damage to children, obviously if they're witnessing violence, then you need to get out. If they are witnessing one spouse talk down to another constantly and belittle them, then they are learning a pattern of behavior that is not healthy, and I think that's justified.
[01:16:36] Speaker B: Yeah.
[01:16:38] Speaker A: You're not breaking the home necessarily, but you need to take yourself out of that space. That is not yeah, for you, it's not healthy for you or your children.
[01:16:45] Speaker B: It's not authentic goodness, truth and beauty being lived out. And then, of course, there's other things like I would say things like financial abuse. We talked about control and manipulation, but it might be theft or someone's.
Yeah, these are serious things. If there's an ongoing pattern of behaving here that's actually doing harm to you or the family, then so I think there's some non negotiables there that you've got to hold to and you should never, ever tolerate. None of those things we just described, you should never be tolerating them, and you should never be if you're on the receiving end of them, thinking, well, maybe I asked for it. Now, there can be, though, in marriages and in relationships, there can be two combustible, immovable objects that meet together and boom, they're always going off.
That's something both parties have got to work at. But even despite that, you should never be on the receiving end, just as you should never be dishing any of that out to someone. So you got to have some non negotiables there, I think, too, for me, I've even advised couples, wives and husbands on some occasions that even things. That you wouldn't call abuse might necessitate you commonly as a wife to actually say, right, I'm taking the kids, we're going to my mum's place. I don't know when we will return because your behavior is just not good. Now, what I mean by that is maybe you got a husband, I don't know, who's constantly wasting the family budget on I mean, video games is not a good example, maybe down at the pub and it's ongoing and it's seriously errant behavior, but he's not addressing it and he keeps saying, I'll address it, I'll address it. Or he's just constantly leaving you with all of the burden to such a degree that it really isn't. It's completely unhealthy, it's all one sided and the only way for him to suddenly get a wake up call is for him to realize, oh my gosh, my wife and my children are so my family wounded by my behavior that they have had to leave.
[01:18:48] Speaker A: Yeah. And sometimes leaving is just necessary for perspective on both sides. You can't make a good decision if you're under that sort of stress and pressure and potential abuse. You need to have that space to actually think things through, talk to some.
[01:19:05] Speaker B: Other sensible adults and they need to evaluate their behaviors, they need to recognize what they've done is wrong and think on that, think on your sins. It's serious, though. They have to.
Here's the other thing leaving like a home or a situation is not the same as divorcing. Remember that. I think in Christianity we probably haven't been so good at that distinction. We've tended to think that the end is it's all over if you do the temporary walk away, that it's a failure, it's a divorce, it's the same as divorce and it's not. It's absolutely not. And I think you've got to make that separation that the temporary time apart can actually be an important and I can think of examples in my head, I won't say out loud, but I can think of marriages where this has actually been exactly the case. It was that separation that actually allowed a proper what would you call it? Reckoning and then a healing to happen that was permanent and actually made the marriage stronger.
[01:20:11] Speaker A: Yeah. And I think, like I said, you never stop praying for a miracle. But it's important we don't bust and hold God into saying, well, I have to stay or the miracle can't happen. God can make a miracle happen anywhere just by its very definition. That's how miracles work.
Just because you've left doesn't mean he's going to go, well, you didn't try hard enough, so you don't get your miracle.
[01:20:30] Speaker B: No. And the reality is that God works in the natural and the reality of what we're living with too.
There is the active will of God, that which he intends, and then there's the permissive will of God and the permissive will is the hardest one to grapple with the thing that he allows and tolerates for the sake of greater goods.
[01:20:48] Speaker A: And it's free will, right?
[01:20:49] Speaker B: Yeah. So for the sake of the greater good of free will, which without that you can't love, he has to allow suffering in the world, including in our relationships. And that can be hard to bear.
Before you take the next step, though, if you were going to say, well, maybe it's all over, I think at that point you've got to really, really think and discern very carefully. I would say don't just go rushing to a lawyer. My advice would be to get a good independent spiritual director or counselor, really good counselor, and take your time to work through it.
[01:21:18] Speaker A: You've both got to be I mean, if there's abuse, then the person who's being abused definitely needs some counseling just for that. But if you want reconciliation with the marriage, then you both have to be invested in doing that together and separately.
[01:21:34] Speaker B: Before there was any end to a marriage, like a permanent end. There would have to be a very, I would say, carefully thought out and moral process of discernment. And obviously this would be a situation probably where you wouldn't be living with the other person anyway, and I would have outside counsel. I don't mean lawyers, because lawyers are just going to do the lawyer thing. And that's not you need people to help you discern well, what is true, what is not, what is good. Because of course, the flip side, too, is that you go back into, and a lot of people do go back into situations they should never go back to because there wasn't a proper discernment about what was actually going on.
[01:22:12] Speaker A: Yeah. What's the cause of the problem?
[01:22:14] Speaker B: Goodness, truth and beauty should be present in your marriage.
It's a non negotiable. There's hardship in that, but there should never be evil, lies, manipulation as a norm in a relationship. They should never be there.
[01:22:28] Speaker A: Agreed. I think just maybe to sum up, I think we sometimes as Christians, we think we have to stay I'm not talking about this from personal experience, but you're sort of divorces. You're obviously trying to avoid that at all costs.
And people have a mistaken idea that the Church teaches that that you have to stay at all costs. But if you are being abused, if you are unsafe, get out, leave. And the Church supports you in that you and your children need to be safe.
[01:22:57] Speaker B: Look, I know of situations with I would call them borderline psychopathic, men in particular, but violent psychopathic behavior that was clearly habitual and it was clearly ingrained, probably, sadly, from a young age in some of these men. It is absolutely not safe for women and kids to be back around them at all. And that's hard. That's hard. That's a hard reality. One of the things that I think is so important about this is the Catholic tradition and their approach to the question of marriage and what they call annulment. We've traditionally, or some people have wrongly thought of annulment as a Catholic divorce. It's not annulment is a recognition that the necessary conditions for your marriage were not actually met and were not present in the first place. So the annulment process is an examination to see whether that was true. And so they are saying, effectively, even though you went through a process of marriage and public and all the rest of it, in actual fact, the necessary conditions were not met and they weren't present. So what was there was not the full binding contract you thought it was because, let's say someone had hidden a very serious alcoholic addiction, or someone had not told you that they had a proclivity for violence or all those kinds of things, or you were coerced into saying yes to a marriage, all those kinds of things. And I think that's where I'm really grateful for that nuance and that thinking through and that clarity, because it gives a proper freedom to say, I cannot go, and people should not go back into some situations.
[01:24:27] Speaker A: That's right.
[01:24:29] Speaker B: Just one last thing on that point, is don't forget to really think through and know your options. If you're not sure where to go, the church can be a good place to go to. First of all, find your local church and just go there and say, look, I'm experiencing abuse in my marriage. I don't know what to do.
I'd recommend that the woman's refuge is another one. Yes, the police. The police are really, really good.
I think probably you go back 30, 40 years, and perhaps there wasn't that same sympathy. But I think now, anyway, I get this. There's a lot more standard. They've been trained a bit more, I think, in the domestic violence arena about how to particularly women, I think, who turn up, don't just assume, oh, they're just making it up, or they're maybe exaggerating, they actually take it seriously. Now, I think we're a lot more seriously.
You can go to a police station, but whatever you do, if you're in a situation of violence or ongoing abuse and manipulation and psychological torment, you should not remain in that. You shouldn't. You need to take action.
All right, that's us for another month. Don't forget, if you want to send us your questions, the link for that is in the show notes. It is lifenet.org. NZ at the top of the page. There's a button at the top of the homepage for that form. Send us in your questions. Please don't forget to share and subscribe to this podcast. If you're finding benefit in it, give us a rating. All of that really helps the show. And if you want to support our ministry work, our ministry work it is. And you want us to help keep doing this work, and you want more episodes of this podcast, and you really see the benefit in it, then please support
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[01:26:26] Speaker A: Brennan can get a word in edgeways on that one.
[01:26:27] Speaker B: Well, yeah, I'm worried about how this is going to work, especially because I'm going to have to set up a third microphone, the short one.
[01:26:37] Speaker A: Choose one Home Alone movie each to be I have a feeling.
[01:26:39] Speaker B: I have a feeling I already see it. I've got a couple of our children of mind who are going to end up hosting, I suspect. And I'll be sitting there ask the OD question, hey, dad. Hey, dad. I'll be good. I'm looking forward to a bit of fun. Thanks for tuning in again, folks.
It was great to be with you. And we should say Merry Christmas.
[01:26:57] Speaker A: Christmas.
[01:26:58] Speaker B: Yeah, we complete each other's sandwiches sentences. So. Yeah, it is Katie. So it's too early.
[01:27:04] Speaker A: Have a good advent. Rest of your advent.
[01:27:07] Speaker B: And yeah, if you're listening to this, after the 25th, you may receive Merry Christmas from us.
[01:27:20] Speaker A: The little flock is a joint production of the LifeNet Charitable Trust and Left Foot Media.
[01:27:25] Speaker B: If you enjoyed this show, then please help us to ensure that more of this great content keeps getting made by becoming a patron of the show at Forward slash Left Foot Media.
[01:27:36] Speaker A: Thanks for listening. See you next time on The Little Flock.
