13. Why is sexual sin so serious? How do you grieve together in marriage? How am I supposed to find a Christian to marry when the Church does such a poor job in this area?

[00:00:06] Speaker A: Hi. My name is Katie Malone. [00:00:07] Speaker B: And I'm Brendan, the husband. [00:00:09] Speaker A: And you're listening to The Little Flock, the podcast that offers practical insights about living a counterculture of goodness, truth, and beauty in a world of increasingly hostile secularism and indifference. [00:00:19] Speaker B: So if you're looking to learn from two imperfect followers of Christ about how to live like the wheat amongst the darnell, this is definitely the podcast for you. Hi, everybody. Welcome back to another episode of The Little Flock. My name is Brendan Malone. [00:00:38] Speaker A: And I'm Katie Malone. [00:00:39] Speaker B: We are very pleased to be back with you to make your acquaintances. Once again struggling to get the right words out there. [00:00:50] Speaker A: Very pleased to be here. [00:00:51] Speaker B: Family secrets. Okay. Yeah, it's shocking, isn't it? Let's get a couple of the notices out of the way. Like a good church meeting, we'll start with the notices, so let's get them out. [00:01:02] Speaker A: You have those at the end, don't we? [00:01:04] Speaker B: We'll get them out of the way first. Otherwise everyone leaves before notices. That's the trick. Everyone. I don't know if you realize this, folks. We're living on a little inside baseball here that basically a lot of churches realize that people leave if you put notices at the end. So you put them at the beginning and you got a captive audience. But that's not why we're doing it. We're just getting it out of the way. So, please, if you're new here, like and subscribe, give us a rating, if you can, whatever podcast platform that you are listening on. Secondly, if you would like to support our work, we would greatly value that. Every little bit helps. We are a donor driven ministry. We rely totally on the providence of God and the generosity of his good and faithful servants such as yourself. There's two ways you can do that. One is you can become a [email protected] leftfoot media. The link is in the show notes. And if you do it that way, then you will get access to our exclusive patrons only content, which we put out every single week. So by becoming a $5 monthly patron, you don't just support our work, you also get access to the social and political commentary podcasts that we put out exclusively every single week, and our monthly interview podcast as well. There is another way to support us, though, if you want to, and this is particularly helpful if you're living in New Zealand, go to Lifenet.org NZ, and on that website you'll find our donate button and the details for how you can make a contribution. Become a regular AP donor to support our work that way. And if you do that and you're in New Zealand, then at the end of every tax year, you get to claim it back on your annual tax return, which is always a great thing. Last but not least, Katie, before we get into the meat and potatoes, as I like to say, as old dad likes to say, of the show. Don't forget that we are a show which exists to answer your questions. So if you've got questions that you'd like to ask, please send them to our well, I was going to say don't email them. Actually, that's dumb. What you need to do is go to the littleflockpodcast.org or Lifenet.org NZ, thelittleflockpodcast.org takes you to our podcast page online. Lifenet.org NZ takes you to our ministry website, and you'll see at the top of either of those pages, there is a link that you can click on and you can fill in a totally anonymous form to send us your questions or topics that you'd like us to talk about in future episodes. Right, Katie, with that all out of the way, let us jump straight in, shall we? [00:03:37] Speaker A: Let's do it. [00:03:38] Speaker B: It's rather awkward today, folks. I'm sorry. You probably can't appreciate this because you can't see us, but my microphone's not quite around the right way, so I'm having to look at the screen and keep turning sideways to face my lovely wife. So, yeah, that's a bit of a shocker. Hopefully the awkwardness doesn't translate into what you're hearing. Okay, so let's start, Katie, by talking about elections, everyone's favorite topic. Is this the kind of good news you want us to talk about on this podcast? [00:04:07] Speaker A: Because good, true and beautiful Britain yeah. Might be getting away from the it's. [00:04:11] Speaker B: The polar opposite, isn't it? Elections are important, though, and that's why we thought we should actually talk about this, because there is a context in which elections take place that I think is often completely neglected and we really do fail to consider, which is actually quite important. And the reason why we're talking about this is because it's a month's time. It's exactly a month. [00:04:30] Speaker A: Oh, that's crazy, isn't it? [00:04:31] Speaker B: Just under a month's time. It's mental. We're going to be going to the polls in New Zealand to have a general election. [00:04:36] Speaker A: Some people will be going to some be staying are they saying there's predicting lowest voter turnout or yeah, yeah, it's huge. [00:04:44] Speaker B: And you've got people, particularly on the left, who are writing articles, decrying their friends, who are telling them, look, I'm not going to vote, so man yeah, it's very interesting and it's certainly not an uncontroversial it's not an uncontroversial election, this one. There's so much flying around out there and lots going on, but one of the things that I think is totally underappreciated and we don't ever consider, actually, is elections and family life. There is this really important connection in this regard and we're going to talk about that. But before we get into that, I thought I would just sort of unpack a few questions and put them to you, Katie, and see what you think on the spot. Okay. Can you think of some good family friendly policies that it would be great to see from any Parliament? [00:05:31] Speaker A: Not off the top of my head, just reverse all the ones they've done in the last six to nine years, undo all the bad stuff. [00:05:41] Speaker B: Evil. [00:05:41] Speaker A: Madness. The only policy I think that would actually sway me at the moment would be a really good tax cut. [00:05:49] Speaker B: You want a tax cut? Oh, this is interesting. We got a little bit of difference in the family. [00:05:53] Speaker A: Not necessarily a tax cut, but something like what they have in Australia, where the first however many thousand dollars of. [00:05:58] Speaker B: Your income yeah, I'm with you on. [00:06:00] Speaker A: That because there's a lot of chats about, oh, we'll take GSTL, fruit and veg, which everybody goes, oh, good. But then realizes, actually that might save them $3 a week. No, I think your average New Zealand family needs some relief. And by not taxing the first however many thousand dollars of income, you also catch the people right at the bottom, but not the people at the top. That's very I don't know. I mean, I haven't looked into it enough, but my instinct says, if only New Zealand was a country that could afford something like that. Or is there a way New Zealand can afford something like that? It is something that would make me look at parties differently if that was something on the table. [00:06:37] Speaker B: That is a very good point. And I think yeah, tax cuts for me are like Blair. They're sort of lollipop. [00:06:46] Speaker A: Well, they never tend to catch the right people. [00:06:49] Speaker B: No. And GST, or fruit and veg, by the way, listening to different tax experts talking about it, they're saying what will probably happen is just the supermarkets will actually just bump up the price and keep the extra. So it's not you can't and there's. [00:07:00] Speaker A: No way they have to ship out their bread expert from Italy. [00:07:04] Speaker B: Yeah, it's kind of madness anyway. But I think your idea, what you're talking about with the whole idea of actually having proper taxation, stratified taxation relief, not just, here's a tax cut, we'll give you some money, here's a lollipop, please vote for us. [00:07:19] Speaker A: And here's more working for families, or whatever. It seems like every year they roll that one out and it's like, well, that's nice, but it's actually not keeping up with the cost of living. [00:07:27] Speaker B: No. And the key thing we haven't had is our taxation brackets have not shifted. I believe it's now eleven years, but it's been at least ten years since they have changed. They have not moved with inflation. So basically what happens is you get what they call bracket creep, where you get families what's a pamley pertinent families are pamlies. No, you get families who are in the lower income bracket, but as inflation shifts and the brackets don't shift with it, they end up paying more tax, basically lower income families. And it's unjust. It really is unjust, so that the cost of living is more effectively they're actually in a much worse off position. If you just increase the brackets upward, then people who are now in those lower income brackets will no longer be treated like they're in the middle income income sorry. Brackets and stuff like that. And I think your point, though, about how we tax is important. [00:08:25] Speaker A: Yes. [00:08:29] Speaker B: The conversation we're not having is, I don't care about so much about we'll give you X amount of dollars. No, we'll give you X amount more. I'm more interested in actually why are we taxing and how do we tax families and what can we do to ensure that families have a strong, robust economic foundation of their own? Okay, next question to consider, and this is an interesting one, how do husbands and wives handle the voting choices? Because it's an interesting thing, and the reason I asked this question, this is where I don't think we consider this much at all. The original notion of the suffragettes who were asking for the vote, they actually copped a lot of opposition from other women when they first tried to do this. And the reason they had strong pushback from other women was because originally the vote was not actually an individual vote. So not every man had a vote, only men who owned property. So it was actually a household vote. And you voted on behalf of your household, and that was everyone in your household, your family members, your children, your wife, if you had servants and workers, all of it. And that was how you voted. And so they said, no, this will actually split men and women if you have this woman's only vote and not all men have the vote. And they actually were not very successful. And then once the shift happened to being more supportive of the suffragettes, was once they gave everyone the vote, then it was like, well, there's no reason for it not to be woman as well. But it does raise an interesting question. Now, we tend to think of our voting choices in purely separatist kind of individualistic ways. You have a vote, I have a vote. But really, I wonder whether as a family, we should consider what does that look like in the Christian vision of family when it comes to voting? What do you think? [00:10:18] Speaker A: I think everybody is entitled to their own opinion. [00:10:21] Speaker B: Sure. [00:10:24] Speaker A: But each person should be voting for the best interest of the people that they are given by God to care for. They have stewardship over. So, yeah, my vote should be considered against what my responsibilities and roles are and vice versa. [00:10:42] Speaker B: You'd be thinking about me and the kids. I'd be thinking about you and the kids, exactly. [00:10:47] Speaker A: Now, kids are pretty I don't think they're politically savvy necessarily, but probably more so than your average child. [00:10:53] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:10:54] Speaker A: And they constantly keep saying to me, who are you voting for? [00:10:56] Speaker B: Mum? [00:10:56] Speaker A: Who are you voting for? Every time I drive past the billboard, I'm like, I don't know, I've eliminated all the people I'm not voting for. [00:11:03] Speaker B: And that raised an interesting thing, like how do you come to your choices? Like, we talk a lot about it. We talk to each other regularly and we'll share articles and information and policy things we hear and yeah, it's not like we sit down and do a cost benefit equation and then we say. [00:11:22] Speaker A: Right, spreadsheet for this. [00:11:23] Speaker B: Yeah, got a spreadsheet here's. Who we vote for? Generally, I think we probably vote pretty similar, don't we? [00:11:29] Speaker A: I think so, yeah. I mean, it's not like it's something that ever has ever come between us. [00:11:33] Speaker B: But we probably think, yeah, we're St Patico anyway. [00:11:36] Speaker A: But I used to tell a funny little story, actually. I don't know if you remember this from a couple of elections ago, maybe six years ago, and we were going somewhere and we said, oh, we've got to vote. We've got to vote before we go. We went past the local primary school and we went in because we had young kids. One of us waited in the car and while the other one went in, then we took our turns, and as I got back in the car, I think it was Nathaniel, must have been, or maybe one of the twins said, who did you vote for, Mummy? And I said, oh, this person? And they said, oh. I said, what's wrong? She said, I thought you were going to vote for Daddy. Very disappointed that I if only the. [00:12:14] Speaker B: Prime Minister I've been promoted. [00:12:16] Speaker A: Prime Minister rangyoro. [00:12:18] Speaker B: That's funny. That is so funny. That's an interesting point, though, about families going together to vote. We were in a bit of a rush that time, but I remember last election, it was separate, eh? I reckon maybe there is some merit in taking the kids with you and sort of showing them, because I remember going with my parents and there was a sense of community and civic duty in it that was like, this is what you did. In fact, I think a couple of times we walked down to the polls because they're often at local schools. Right. So we walked down to the poll polls together and you sort of watched this bizarre thing unfolding and it was all over very quickly. [00:12:51] Speaker A: One time the election was on my best friend's weding day, and I had to go down before we I might not the day before, but I felt we all went down and we're like, Right, get this done before we get married. [00:13:00] Speaker B: So funny. My personal pet peeves is the way they've opened up voting now. I think it's two weeks of voting we've got. I actually think that it should be, yeah, I really think it should be one day. And I think reason for that is, number one, is because it prevents any sort of last minute electioneering and silly Billies going on where a lot can happen in that period. [00:13:23] Speaker A: You can't campaign on the last day of voting, then why should you be able to campaign for the yeah. Days before that. [00:13:29] Speaker B: No. It also avoids the risk of something happening, like, say, five days out from election and someone's already voted and they're like, oh, man, I want to change my vote, but they can't. [00:13:40] Speaker A: That's right. [00:13:41] Speaker B: And also, secondly, to me, it feels like it's the day you come together to vote. And if there's a reason why you can't vote. Let's say you're a doctor or an emergency care worker, it feels like there should either be special care taken to ensure they come to your workplace and allow you to like at a hospital and all the staff can come and vote. Or that maybe what they do is they have a mail in exemption for you. You can post it in, but you might still vote on the day, but you post it in, or something like that. But yeah, I don't know. To me, it's like a philosophical thing in a sense of the responsibility and otherwise, it feels very consumeristic and OD. [00:14:22] Speaker A: It'd be interesting to know the figures on how many people you catch with that extra two weeks. The people that are going to vote are going to go and vote whether you have one day or two weeks. [00:14:30] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:14:30] Speaker A: So how much of a percentage are they actually catching in those extra days? Would be interesting to know. [00:14:34] Speaker B: Yeah. So that brings me to the next question. How do you remain at peace when families strongly disagree about politics? Now, we're pretty blessed we don't have this problem, and please God, long may it continue. But who knows? One day it may become an issue. But how do you remain at peace when families strongly disagree? What would you advise if there's families where that is an issue? [00:14:55] Speaker A: I think you just have to have civil conversations, and if you get to a point where it's not going to be civil, then maybe you have to agree to step away. If you're really going to strongly disagree, the likelihood of one thing you say, changing their mind or vice versa is pretty small. [00:15:12] Speaker B: Well, if you are concerned about your spouse's or your older children's voting choices, like, let's say they really are legitimately, they're voting for the legalized Cannabis Party or something, then you're not going to win them back into goodness and truth by just having a fight with them. No, you got to have dialogue, and that means having conversation with them, listening, and I think also loving them. And I think that shows that maybe that if they see you as a person who's loving, then maybe they see some loving merit in your voting choices eventually. I think you got to trust that old adage, too, that if you are not a socialist or a Marxist when you're in your 20s, you've got no heart. If you're still a Marxist in your 40s, you've got no brain. But it's kind of true. When you're younger, you're sort of driven by the passion of it and then as you get older you mature and things change. So I think as parents you got to trust that maybe with your kids that'll happen as well. You do the best you can and then let them fly from the net. [00:16:19] Speaker A: And I think we have a lot of conversations around politics, and I know my family, certainly that was something that was quite normal to have around the election, to have kind of mum and dad would chat about it. And it wasn't like we weren't unaware. We didn't necessarily understand everything, but we were aware that there was an election coming, what that meant. I think problems come when people start setting politicians up as the saviors. Like if we decide that this one party is going to save the country, I mean, we can see you need to look back at history to see that's not going to happen. [00:16:50] Speaker B: There was a recent female in charge of our country who will remain nameless. [00:16:55] Speaker A: But even before, like if you look at Germany, for instance, where people thought, oh, this is the one party, the one person that can save us, as we know that's not true. No politician, no person can save you. So yes, politics has a part to play in how our countries run and repercussions on what that means for families and just the people in the country as citizens but at the end of the day that's not where salvation comes from. [00:17:21] Speaker B: No, you're great if you're getting that. [00:17:22] Speaker A: Passionate about it you probably need to take a step back and remember that. [00:17:26] Speaker B: Yeah, that's a great point. Because as Christians and scriptures are very clear about this, we don't follow a political messiah. It's not a political movement, Christianity. It wants to redeem politics, human politics. But it's not. And the danger is we reduce it to a political movement and then we get so caught up in what we. [00:17:43] Speaker A: Think are the right or elevating politics to almost a religion status. [00:17:49] Speaker B: Yeah, that's a good point. So I guess I think it's just something you got to work on. And I think probably it tends to be my gut instinct would be it's more. Although this election could be a bit fraught because in my travels, in my speaking ministry, I've met people all around the country over the last six to twelve months because of the vaccine mandates it's brought, even. But I had a really kind of sad conversation. It was with the man, older man, and him and his wife disagreed on that point, and they were both together and loving and all the rest of it, but it was still a point of contention. So I suspect this election, within families, that might be or within households that might be more of an issue. But I suspect probably the bigger problem is the extended family. So a household probably might all think very similarly, but once you get outside that, it's the extended family. And I would imagine it's things like the first family function or get together after the election and leading up to it. That's where I think you just got to be as a person who is a disciple of Christ, you've got to work extra hard to maybe bite your tongue or to bring peace. Let me be an instrument of peace in those situations. [00:18:54] Speaker A: Also bear in mind we are in New Zealand, so we probably won't know anything after the election. It could be a few months. Who knows how politics works in this country? [00:19:02] Speaker B: It's crazy, isn't it? [00:19:03] Speaker A: Doesn't work. [00:19:04] Speaker B: Which is it working? Last question. How do you prioritize politics so the negative downsides that it can bring to a household are kept in check? What would you say? [00:19:18] Speaker A: Sometimes just do book club instead of talking about politics? [00:19:20] Speaker B: Yeah, don't let it dominate. So that would be one, right? Yeah, I think as well, one mistake you make is actually not to have good, legitimate political discussions. You know that old adage, don't talk about politics and religion at the dinner table. That is just stupid. It's so dumb. And it comes from Enlightenment liberalism and also really the separation of spheres, the public and private life. And it's trying to intrude into the family home, basically into the private sphere is now saying no, that the private sphere should also have a public and private sphere, that you shouldn't talk about certain things even in your private family dinners. I think the way to avoid probably the problems is to actually have healthy conversations and to not to sort of shy away from it because I think that probably just agitates people rather know is particularly helpful. But again, you've got to know when to walk away. [00:20:13] Speaker A: That's right, too. [00:20:14] Speaker B: And that's the that's the challenge. I guess the key thing for us is saying, okay, if you're a disciple of Christ, what is the priority? It's goodness and truth and beauty. That's the culture we're trying to live and maintain. And so are my actions are my words good and true? They might be true, but they might not be good. And then are they beautiful? They might be good, they might be true, but they might not be beautiful in what I'm saying or how I'm saying it. So if you keep that at the forefront and like you say, sometimes that means it's just book club tonight for. [00:20:45] Speaker A: The six night in a row. [00:20:48] Speaker B: But I think it's something we got to fight for. I would say don't ever. We've seen this over the last couple of years probably really in a big way since 2016, those articles that started appearing, should I invite my Trump voting uncle to Christmas? And it was all of a sudden politics became this bright line test for who was actually a member of your family or not. And that's just evil. Don't let that happen in your family. Don't let that happen. Okay, so that's politics. We've solved the world's problems. [00:21:17] Speaker A: Yep, sorted. [00:21:18] Speaker B: Get out there and vote, people. Or not, as the case may be. You have the freedom not to in New Zealand. Let's move on to this great article on it's titled On Being Impatient as we rush into great pointers, some very great pointers. Very relevant for us this morning in the pre record for this, wasn't it? There's a little bit of both of us in busy air. It's trying to get other things done. Let's start with this article, On Being Impatient and the two great quotes. Man, we could just about stop without even reading the article. The first quote is from Alexander Salts. Andetson if you haven't read The Gulag Archipelago or Live not by lies any alexander, Salts and Nietsen you need to read Alexander, Salts and Nietsen. But he says this hastiness and superficiality are the psychic diseases of the 20th century. That's true, right? [00:22:03] Speaker A: It is true. I was thinking, wonder what he'd say. [00:22:05] Speaker B: About the 21st ultramanic hastiness and superficiality. And then Leo tolstey I should have read that slower. Talk about impatience. Leo Tolstoy. Leo toasty. Oh, man. He is both one of the great literature and the most tasty of the tasty tolstoy. That's a shocker, isn't it? Okay, the strongest of all warriors are these two time and patience. That is a great quote for family life. Right? Great quote. Here's what the article says. We are too impatient, slaves to efficiency, devotees of multitasking, disciples of expediating. We are a tragically and dangerously inattentive breed. And you know what that reminds me of? It reminds me once I was with one of my clients in a former job that I had, and we were on a job site and we were waiting for a lift, and I pressed the button for the lift, the elevator, for those who are listening overseas. And it didn't quite come as fast as I wanted to, and I pressed it several times. And the client who I was with is an older guy who's a technician, who's a bearded technician. And he said, that's a sign of impatience. Just relax. And I still remember that. He says, what are you so impatient for? Okay? Just think about it. Modern politicians communicate in tweets and sound bites. Movie images have rocketed from 16 frames to 300 frames per second. Well, that's not really an impatience issue. That was crazy, though. Yeah, that's a trick to try and get a particular look. That's a little bit sneaky, Mr. Author of this article. Even our cursory texts and tweets aren't brief enough, so we use shorthand, emojis and gifs. And it's getting worse, eh? [00:23:49] Speaker A: Absolutely. [00:23:49] Speaker B: Yeah. Sooner or later it'll just be grunts. Yeah. I haven't got time for words. [00:23:56] Speaker A: Teenage boy communication. [00:23:58] Speaker B: Teenage boys will be in the ascendancy. They will rule the world. And compared to the old days, when you sauntered over to the Family World Book encyclopedia. I often talk about that. [00:24:09] Speaker A: Did you have encyclopedia those days? [00:24:11] Speaker B: Yeah, we had the funk and wagners. Don't say that quickly or you'll be in trouble. [00:24:16] Speaker A: Dad used to look up, like, all the medical terms when we were watching Casualty find out what that meant. [00:24:20] Speaker B: Yeah. So we had no googling. We had the Funk and Wagners dictionaries sorry. Encyclopedias. And that was like the family encyclopedia set. And I remember the encyclopedia salesman would regularly come once or every second year, try and sell you Britannicas or whatever. And then there would be we had a medical a set of four medical encyclopedias as well, popular at your house. All bases were covered. [00:24:43] Speaker A: No, it's not broken. [00:24:46] Speaker B: We used to look at those. They had those little clear acetate overlays of the body so you could layer the skeleton, and then you put the muscle layer on top and you build up a person. But yeah. So basically, as I tell people in presentations about this, that was our Google. That was it how'd you know your alphabet and everything. Yeah. So funny, man. Okay. To the Family World Book Encyclopedia. Down to the library. Even worse, to find resources by poring through the card catalog, the speed with which Google or Chat GPT can answer our questions is downright stunning. And still we are impatient. It feels like we're getting more impatient as the technology makes things quicker. That's right. Do you remember, did you have an old computer back in the day? [00:25:26] Speaker A: Yes, we had a Commodore 64. [00:25:28] Speaker B: Yeah. And did you have the tape? [00:25:29] Speaker A: 1986? [00:25:30] Speaker B: Yeah, we had a Commodore 16 and it was the same. Did you have the floppy disk or the tape player? Floppy disk, yeah, we started with the tape. We pressed Play and it would take 40 minutes. [00:25:39] Speaker A: When did you get that? In, like, 1999 or something. [00:25:42] Speaker B: 1824. It came to our house. Lord Smithy bought it on the back. [00:25:47] Speaker A: Of a bugger encyclopedia, man. [00:25:48] Speaker B: Brought it with you with the first it was only one. It was the letter A. They hadn't finished the Zeked one yet. No. So you'd press Play on a tape to load a game, and it would take 45 minutes, sometimes more, to load a game. And it was a basic game. It was nothing. It wasn't complex. And you'd be like, wow, this is so quick. And now you look at it, but now it's uber fast. It's like instant. And we're like, It's not quick enough. It's not quick enough. [00:26:19] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:26:19] Speaker B: Funny that when you are reading an essay or article on your phone and this is you, you read a lot on your phone, ask yourself how many seconds pass before you start scrolling to see how long it is. Do you do that? [00:26:31] Speaker A: No, it depends. [00:26:32] Speaker B: Come on. [00:26:33] Speaker A: I'm not a fan of this acronym. He's about to talk. [00:26:38] Speaker B: Oh, I remember the first time I came across the abbreviation TLDR too long. Didn't read. Why didn't. You like it? [00:26:46] Speaker A: Because you should read I get really annoyed. Facebook who comment on articles where they haven't actually read the whole thing and you can clearly tell. [00:26:52] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:26:53] Speaker A: First paragraph and last paragraph. I'm like, if you're going to write a comment, just read the whole thing. Please commit to it. [00:27:00] Speaker B: I disagree. With what? [00:27:01] Speaker A: Committed enough to write a comment. You're committed enough to we should be to read the whole thing. The only thing I don't read all of is the recipes that come with, like, five stories about how the person was on a train and the trees and they thought, oh, I should really make that marshmallow slice. And then it's like, yeah, just give me the recipe. Jump to recipe every time. [00:27:17] Speaker B: What do I need to buy and how do I put it in a bowl and then in the oven? Thank you. End of story. Yeah, I agree. Okay. Someone had employed it for a 500 word essay too long. Didn't read for 500 words. Wow. I thought it was clever until I realized it was actually tragic. TLDR epitomizes our stunted attention span. Make it fast or make it go away. We're spoiled by speed. We are recklessly, impatient, and without impatience, we lose wonder and discernment. [00:27:44] Speaker A: Beautiful. [00:27:45] Speaker B: So true. Right? In his brisk collection of essays, the Noise of Typewriters. What a great name for an essay. Can I say that? Yeah, you can, Lance. TLDR the opposite. [00:27:56] Speaker A: Should have had some sound for me and some clacky clackies in the background. [00:27:59] Speaker B: Well, look, I'll add some oh, wait, everyone listen. I'm going to add the clacky clackies now. Hope you enjoyed those clacky clackies. Just I do. What the wife happy wife, happy life. So the noise of typewriters. Lance Morrow tells the OD story of Dr. Louis Agaziz. Yeah, okay. A Harvard professor of natural history. Faced with an eager student yearning for this august mentor, agaziz would pull a large and very dead fish what? From its formaldehyde filled jar, slop it down on a tin tray, and tell the student, look at your fish. The student perplexed would be left alone for an hour, only to stutter and stammer some unsatisfactory answers. Once the professor returned, frowning and shaking his head, dr. Agaziz would repeat, look at your fish. And once again walk away. We try this with our kids. Apparently, this exercise would last hours over several days until the exhausted student began to really see the fish in all of its wonder complexity that transcends its facts. That's great. Reflecting on the story, Morrow wrote, never be certain that there is no meaning. Never be certain that about anything too quickly. That's great. This is your dinner. Walk away. See you. [00:29:13] Speaker A: It'll work out. Well. [00:29:13] Speaker B: This is your dinner. [00:29:15] Speaker A: I have found it's a good trick with kids, though. Let them run. Yeah, but don't be too quick to jump in. Don't be too quick to answer. Like, sometimes you just stand there in silence and stare at them. Not in an intimidating way, but it's intimidating just because you're not talking. [00:29:29] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:29:30] Speaker A: You sort of get to things. Truth comes out. [00:29:34] Speaker B: Let them fill in the blanks. Just wait. [00:29:36] Speaker A: You don't have to talk every time. [00:29:38] Speaker B: Yeah, we try and fill with the parents. [00:29:39] Speaker A: We think we're in charge of all the talking. [00:29:41] Speaker B: Yeah, that's right. Morrow also champions the meticulous work of Robert Caro. Caro, who spent decades writing only a few books. It sounds like me reading only a few books. One on New York City urban planner Robert Moses and four on President Lyndon B. Johnson with a fifth on his he's definitely got a tie. Favorite topic? I don't know. Lyndon B. Johnson? No, you could write. They might be short books like the first encyclopedia. His work is so meticulous that it borders on the obsessive compulsive for the smallest of details. Caro would spend an inordinate amount of time getting the story just right. Obviously, Morrow rightly notes that this is the characteristic of a biographer and not a journalist on deadline. As a matter of fact, Caro found himself financially strapped many times during his endeavors. Ten years I have that book for you. But his work, in which he turns every page is unparalleled in its completeness truth. Caro insists, takes time. That's what you're saying, right? [00:30:42] Speaker A: Yes. [00:30:42] Speaker B: Let the kids speak. [00:30:43] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:30:44] Speaker B: Let them speak and the truth will out. Yeah, great point. Truth takes time. But we don't like that. We want answers now served up piping hot. Chop, chop. How often does the parent have said that? Chop chop, Clinton, your room? Well, that is, we do want that. But by instantly obliterating the chasm between our curiosity and our apprehension we may not grow where there is no struggle to define terms. No wrestling for clarity, no consideration, much less reconsideration of why our question even matters in the grander scheme. No fundamental waiting just so that things can simmer. We grow intellectually and at times spiritually flabby in Dante's Divine Comedy, even at the base of the formidable Mount Purgatory the august poet Virgil implores strangers to share the secret of how to move expeditiously from Purgatory's interminable anti chamber. For who knows most virgil taps his foot. Him loss of time most grieves. And I think that's you know, what I've noticed too is I think in any sort of if you're involved in ministry or even family life or church leadership or anything like that, we get on this efficiency deadline and it's this false deadline we impose. We think, no, we've got to have a problem solved by 10:00 a.m.. Tomorrow or we've got to do this thing by next week. But do we why is it okay just to stop and actually wait and come to a better outcome by allowing the space for that? I reckon, yeah. It's a real trap, eh? And in family life yeah, that can be a real trap in a wide ranging 2003 interview. SAS and rack on tour. I haven't heard that word in a while. [00:32:28] Speaker A: It's a good one. [00:32:29] Speaker B: Rack on tour. Brendan Malone, he was quite the rack on tour. Mr Malone, Mr malione. Joseph Epstein told a story of patience. Misunderstood. I have a cousin who died recently. A lot of patience and death, I guess. A guy named Sherwin Rosen, who I loved. Really. He was the chairman of the Economics Department at Chicago. And at a memorial dinner for him, this man, Gary Becker, who won a Nobel Prize in economics, said, you know, when sherwin was a graduate student here, we almost canned him because he was slow in response. If you asked Sherwin a question, he would say, Gee, I am not certain. And then he would come back a month later. That's a long time. He brooded on these things, but he saw aspects in the question none of us did. Becker said, being fast in response is one of the things we look for in good students. But it's a mistake. It's true. And I think in our kids and family life, too. Right. Give me an answer. Tell me what's going on. But maybe we need to let our kids actually just formulate the truth and not just formulate an answer. [00:33:35] Speaker A: That's right. Because sometimes the first answer is just the one they think you want to hear. [00:33:39] Speaker B: Yeah. Well, as we found out on the weekend, I had a little blow up with two of our children, who. It was a fight over cheese slices. This is Family Life 101 ultimate slap. [00:33:49] Speaker A: Down over the cheese. [00:33:50] Speaker B: And both of them, I came out and there was a going on, and I said, what the heck is going on here? And they both gave me a quick answer, and both of them told a half truth in a porcupine. And twice I changed. And then the third time, I got it right, how I disciplined in that situation, because first time I got completely the wrong culprit. Second time, I got the second wrong culprit. Third time, I found out both of them are culprits. And it was an absolute it was a moment of carnage. And the funny thing is, guess what happened. We probably lost half an hour, or me and the two of them of our day, when if we'd just slowed down, it might have been five minutes. [00:34:27] Speaker A: And everybody was grumpy. [00:34:28] Speaker B: Yeah, five or ten minutes rather than 30 minutes. [00:34:31] Speaker A: That's right. [00:34:33] Speaker B: To think upon the question in spite of pressures. How wonderful live the questions for now. As Reyna Maria Rilke suggested, everything must be carried to term before it is born. [00:34:46] Speaker A: I love that quote. [00:34:47] Speaker B: That is great. And see, women understand that, don't they? US men. It's like we want it now. Or do we? No. [00:34:53] Speaker A: I said, boy, do we. [00:34:54] Speaker B: Boy. Yeah, she does. Yeah, absolutely. She does. Maybe in the unforced quiet, the unmarked hours, the unencumbered contemplation we will arrive at good sense and clarity. Man, it's so beautiful. A and you realize how toxic our world is in that regard. It's just everything is so busy and noisy and distracted. Distracted? Stimulation, noise. Things. More things. Man, the devil must love it, eh? I think about my own life. What's lacking in that regard? Final paragraph. GK. Chesterton once noted, it is the wouldn't be a great article without Chesterton. [00:35:31] Speaker A: Just true. [00:35:33] Speaker B: GK. Chesterton once noted, it is the paradox of history that each generation is converted by the saint who contradicts it most. That's a great point. That is a great point. If that is the case, then I would nominate patience as the minor virtue that if employed, diligently contradicts our dizzy, harried and wayward generation the most. As such, following Chesterton's reasoning, perhaps patience is the most equipped to convert us. Let us patiently see if it does. That's great, eh? I like that article. [00:36:02] Speaker A: Really good. [00:36:03] Speaker B: Yeah. And important for family life, eh? Because we've mentioned this before, family life is often marked now by just constant busyness. [00:36:11] Speaker A: Yeah. Going from one thing to the next. [00:36:14] Speaker B: Sporting seasons, activity seasons. It's guides tonight, or it's Boy Scouts, or it's youth group, or it's basketball practice or netball practice or rugby or soccer. And then if it's not that, it's like there's a family dinner, there's a church event, there's a thing to be done. Go to the school and hear the teachers give you a report about your students, all that sort of stuff. It's nonstop. And I guess the question is, how do we break that shackle then? I think we got to be deliberate. [00:36:42] Speaker A: Do we absolutely have to be intentional about it? Yeah. And I think also on the flip side of that, choosing to be patient and to wait and to take your time, people, we feel guilty about it. We feel like not being productive. We're not making this happen faster. [00:37:00] Speaker B: That's a good point. [00:37:01] Speaker A: I should be doing more. I should be cooking three dinners today so that tomorrow I can do whatever else. It's not so I can rest tomorrow, it's so that I can do more stuff. Do more stuff. Yeah. [00:37:11] Speaker B: That's a great point. I think often we forget. I think men think this is solely their domain, where they feel the pressure of doing efficiency and doing but in actual fact, it's mothers, it's women as well. It's all of us. It's the evil or one of the evils. [00:37:25] Speaker A: A woman's work is never done. Mainly they're talking about laundry. [00:37:31] Speaker B: Constant man. Isn't it the gift that keeps on giving. But it's funny, isn't it, how that efficiency then also plays into the moral realm, because that impatience to think about the respect for human life and things like abortion and euthanasia, to be in those moments of suffering, of respect for human life, you need patience. You can't want to force an outcome, because if you want to, you will go to the quickest, seemingly most easiest solution, and that will be probably the culture of death. [00:38:02] Speaker A: I'd go even smaller and more personal that, and say, what's your patience like in your prayer life? And this is I'm saying it addressed to you, but it's obviously for me as well. [00:38:12] Speaker B: Are you talking to me? [00:38:14] Speaker A: Because we say our prayers, we sort of took them off the list. Obviously our prayers today, we've done that. But actually, how patient are you and how fast are you expecting God to you want the lightning bolt answered? God will enlighten my heart right now. And I'll know. [00:38:30] Speaker B: Great point. [00:38:31] Speaker A: Yeah. And that's not often how it works, in my experience. I don't know how many lightning bolts. [00:38:35] Speaker B: You get every day, but no, it's a dialogue. [00:38:38] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:38:38] Speaker B: And funnily enough, the lightning bolts come from just being impatient stillness with no agenda. [00:38:46] Speaker A: That's right. [00:38:46] Speaker B: Funny. The agenda. Drowns that all out. [00:38:48] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:38:49] Speaker B: That's a great point, Katie. Very, very good point. [00:38:51] Speaker A: I've reached Peck Wisdom. Now. [00:38:56] Speaker B: You've climbed the mountain and found that you are the guru. Let's all go visit the mountain. Right. That musical interlude, folks. You know what that means if you're a regular listener? That means that it's time for our moment of goodness, truth or beauty. Katie, what is your moment of goodness, truth? Well, your ladies first. [00:39:27] Speaker A: I had a few since our last. [00:39:28] Speaker B: Podcast, this Is Your Way. [00:39:30] Speaker A: I've heard to narrow it down a bit. Multiple A. I shared something on Facebook a few days ago, and I'm not going to read the whole thing because we don't need to, but it was a reflection on Motherhood. And being a mum to young children as well as older children and sort of essentially about being in the moment and appreciating it when you're in it, because eventually they won't want to go to the playground anymore. Those days pass you by without you kind of noticing. Yeah, true. And the reason I mentioned that is because it ties into something I saw at church recently that's just so beautiful, like such a witness that a friend of mine was bearing without even realizing it. So she's a mum of ten. She's got one on the way. So she's a mum of eleven and she's about halfway through her pregnancy, and I noticed her leave the church with her two year old, and he was obviously having a bit of a rough time. He went to what our son used to call the naughty boys room, which is really just a little side room where you can still hear church going on and sort of semi participate. And as I looked through the doors, I could see that she had put him down. She'd pulled up a chair and he was standing on the chair and he was hugging her kind of around her tummy. Not for any other reason, I think, than that. She was just too tired to hold him. And he obviously wanted to be cuddled. [00:40:45] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:40:46] Speaker A: And I just thought, that's such a beautiful witness. Like, she's pregnant, she knows he still needs the connection, and she's doing it in a way that she can manage it. [00:40:57] Speaker B: Yeah. That's awesome. That's a saintly witness. [00:41:00] Speaker A: Absolutely. Saintly. [00:41:00] Speaker B: Heroic virtue. It's that kind of motherly love that gets taken for granted. Again, it's patience, too, isn't it? It's just being in the moment and having no agenda. But that stuff is the stuff that's world building for human beings. We look back on those moments with our mother and our father, and they really are quite transformative and important. [00:41:20] Speaker A: I was just really thinking of the way that even she's probably quite tired, but even in that moment, and you might look at her and not realize oh, you certainly wouldn't realize to look at her that she's got nine other kids somewhere else. Absolutely not. Younger with every single child, I think. But even in her own moment of tiredness and just doing what she could, she was still giving of herself. So beautiful. [00:41:47] Speaker B: Yeah. That's awesome. And if we go back to that first point where we started talking about politics, that's the kind of stuff that politics has got no business being involved. It's got no answer for it. But what it can do is how does it carve out the space for that to just happen? You know what I mean? It's not about money. It's not about a policy. It's just the beauty of there's wonder and captured and all of that. We're reading about that last article. There's patience, there's human self giving it's above and beyond all of the other stuff, which we often think is so much more important. That's a great moment. Yeah. I think you won the trophy this month for that. My moment of goodness, truth and Beauty was a bit of a proud dad moment, actually. We went to the March for Life in Christchurch on Saturday. Pro life event and a really, really great, beautiful event. And there were a couple of pro abortion choice protesters who showed up, and they came to heckle. And they tried to play a boom speaker loud to drown out our sound system, but didn't even come close. And then they were university age students, and they then entered into a dialogue with our teenage daughters. So high school, they sent me away. It's funny. Well, one of them asked me a question, and then I started giving him robust answers, and he realized, uhoh, rut roll. And then I get told by another one of the participants there about basically I don't want to be man splained. And I said, oh, I do dad splaining, so I can do that if you like. And then I got told that we don't want old people talking to us. And I was like, okay, that's where I'm at now. And I was like, okay, well, I'll leave. And like, my teenage daughters and a group of their friends. But I just want to let you I didn't say this, but I was thinking, I just want to let you know that I'm not throwing you to the wolves because with me you'll get a measured no holes barred. Yeah. They're going to pull your arguments to bits. And then I stood back with an earshot and I watched and I listened on as Holy moly. This group of young teenage, predominantly women, they're a young woman engaging with these university age students who clearly thought that they're the acolytes of the pro abortion choice movement. And they clearly thought, we're going to decimate these young kids. You could see it. And we're here to basically evangelize them with the truth. And they'll realize no, that we're smarter. [00:44:01] Speaker A: Than they don't know how oppressed they are. [00:44:03] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:44:03] Speaker A: Wait for us to tell them. [00:44:04] Speaker B: And they tried. And our daughters and their friends, not only did they hold their own, but they kept absolutely sort of decimating their arguments. And it was beautiful. It really was a thing of beauty to behold because there was goodness, there was truth, there was beauty. And it went on for almost an hour. And the way they conducted themselves was a really beautiful part of it as well. They never lost the plot. The other side got nasty, actually, one of them in particular. But they held their own with a beautiful charity and their intellectual prowess was just man, it was just yeah. I couldn't help but I was like I looked at this and I thought, yeah, people who are worried about the future of our country, these young women, these are the leaders who are going to take us forward and holy moly, they're already owning the opposition in a good charitable kind of way. Not in a facetious, psychotic kind of way, but in a really deep, meaningful. [00:45:05] Speaker A: And at the end of the day, it's that charity, that witness charity that will actually change the world. Not whatever you say. [00:45:10] Speaker B: No. And they really did have a good nature dialogue between the two groups, which. [00:45:17] Speaker A: Was just knowing how to disagree. [00:45:18] Speaker B: Well, yeah, and not just myself, but another one of the adults who was there, one of the other dads, Jason. We both separately went over and thanked them for being there and for having the dialogue and having the conversation. And I imagine that might have meant something to them too, because they probably thought, oh, just a bunch of angry woman haters. Because believe it or not, people think that way. [00:45:40] Speaker A: Absolutely. [00:45:40] Speaker B: And so to sort of discover that they're actually welcome, kind of yeah. It was great though. Alrighty, so what about your scripture reflection for the month, Katie? Now you're going to pick up your phone? I know this is the disadvantage of being first cab off the rank. You've got to be ready to go when the questions are asked. [00:45:58] Speaker A: You got to wait for the husband to stop talking. [00:46:01] Speaker B: Shut your pie hell. So I can read from the Bible. We laugh, but it's true. [00:46:10] Speaker A: This was one of the readings of the day a few weeks ago, and it's been sitting with me since then, and I just thought, I have to share that. So when I read it in the morning, the version I had had a different translation. And it wasn't until I heard it again later that day with the translation that really struck me, and I had to go find it. I had to go looking for this other translation because it made such a difference. [00:46:29] Speaker B: So you mean Bible translation, not language. Different language. [00:46:33] Speaker A: Yeah. Both in English. Yes, both very good. English. [00:46:36] Speaker B: Yes. [00:46:38] Speaker A: It's from first, Thessalonians, chapter three. [00:46:41] Speaker B: Cool. [00:46:43] Speaker A: And it says this it's verse seven. So Paul's writing to the church in Thessalonica. [00:46:50] Speaker B: Yeah, some might say Thessaloniaca, but it is yeah. [00:46:54] Speaker A: Which one is right? [00:46:55] Speaker B: I think it's just a pronunciation thing. Possibly thessaloniaca because of the Greek pronunciation. [00:46:59] Speaker A: So that one. [00:47:00] Speaker B: Yes. [00:47:02] Speaker A: And he's talking about, know we sent Timothy to you because we heard things were bad, and now Timothy's come back and he's told us how happy you all are, and that's great. And then he says, and so, brothers, your faith has been a great encouragement to us in the middle of our own distress and hardship. Now we can breathe again, as you are holding firm in the Lord. The version I had first said, for now we live. You are holding firm, the Lord. But when I heard it later that day, it just really struck me. That whole now we can breathe again, how beautiful that was. When you're really struggling with something, be it faith or other things. And then when you have a good friend who witnesses to you or someone who supports you or just surrounded by people that share your faith with you, that feeling of relief, that's a great breathe again. So beautiful. So it really struck with me. [00:47:53] Speaker B: You've given me lungs. That's a beautiful that's awesome. I love that. Yeah, you're right about that translation difference. [00:48:00] Speaker A: I had to go look and I was like, Why are all these boring ones? [00:48:02] Speaker B: Yeah. Now we can breathe again. Man. There's a reason why you get pop songs about romance and love that talk about breathe again, breathe again. Because it is there's something about that you give me my it's that feeling. [00:48:17] Speaker A: Of like, they've been so worried about the church there and they had to wait for Timothy to go holding their breath. Yeah, they're holding their breath to make sure, like, are you standing firm? Are you witnessing to christ? [00:48:28] Speaker B: Wow, that is awesome. So me gosh, yeah, that was man, you get the second trophy. [00:48:36] Speaker A: You made me go first. [00:48:38] Speaker B: Two thumbs up one. Timothy, chapter three, verses two to five, is talking about the qualifications to be in leadership, different leadership roles in the church. And it starts, first of all, by talking about that the person must be temperate, sensible, respectable, hospitable, an apt teacher, not a drunkard, not violent, but gentle, not quarrelsome, and not a lover of money. And then it says this he must manage his own household well, keeping his children submissive and respectful in every way. For if someone does not know how to manage his own household, how can he take care of God's church, which Paul also writes to Timothy and calls the household of God. And then in verse twelve, later on verse twelve, it's talking about a different position in leadership. And it says, and let them manage their children and their households well, that's a qualification. And I was thinking just what really struck me about this reading is as I'm reading, this is the actual importance of the prioritization of the household and family life and it's how it should be the first priority. And it's also, when you prioritize it, it becomes a qualification for you. It's not an impediment, I'm too busy, I can't, I'm too busy. So it's not an impediment to prioritize family life and to do that with genuine care and love and excellence. It also becomes a qualification then. And it becomes a character trait that people say, yeah, this person has reliability and integrity and they can be trusted. We often think that that self giving love is just a demand, it's all just self sacrificial. But this is the paradox. If you seek out the reward, then it's no longer self sacrificial. But if you seek out the self sacrificial, the reward comes. You flourish as a result of this, and this is one way we flourish. Our family life flourishes, obviously, and then also as individuals, we flourish too, but we don't flourish by prioritizing our own needs and our own self. We prioritize the well being and the flourishing of our family. And then in this case, you reap a reward of that. You become someone who is now qualified to actually govern other areas. Gosh, it really struck me as being quite profound how important that is. If you want to be a better manager, a better employee I don't know, a better member or leader in your church, a better sports team member, whatever it is, prioritize your family life and do it well. [00:51:03] Speaker A: Absolutely. I think you actually need to pour yourself into your family life before you pour yourself into all those other things because it's out of order if you don't do it that way. Yeah, we have a friend who talks about when her dad was doing loads and loads of stuff for the church and then he realized one night as he's going out to like his fifth meeting of the week, this is actually wrong. [00:51:24] Speaker B: This is not all out of order. [00:51:25] Speaker A: Not the order that God wants for our family life. And he really pulled back and restructured. And I would still like he's a better leader today than he was when he was going to all those meetings all the time. [00:51:38] Speaker B: Yeah, that's true, isn't it? So true. All righty, folks, that was our moment of goodness, truth and beauty and our scriptural reflections for the month. Gosh, there was some really good stuff in there this time, wasn't there? And I should say, too, we've opened the door now to let a bit of fresh air into the office. So you'll get the sounds of nature. The lawn mower from next door, maybe the guy next door likes to play his I know. And when he's not doing that, he's playing his dooftoff music quite loud. Sophie, if that's what you hear, then apologies. Let's jump into the listener questions. We've got three good questions today. First one, Katie. Why is sexual sin so serious? [00:52:29] Speaker A: Because it never hurts. Just one. [00:52:34] Speaker B: Is that is good. That's a nice succinct answer. [00:52:36] Speaker A: You can elaborate, though. [00:52:38] Speaker B: That is good. No, that is great. [00:52:40] Speaker A: You might have had a different answer, I suppose. [00:52:41] Speaker B: No, you stole my thunder and you gave a really good sound bite writing. [00:52:44] Speaker A: That never happens. [00:52:45] Speaker B: Well, in a sense, though, you'd say sexual sin is not more serious than, say, murder. So there is a hierarchy, in a sense. There's a gravity to actions. Taking a postit note from the workplace without asking permission is not the same as committing a sexual sin, which is not the same as murdering someone, for example. And so it is not the most serious of sins necessarily, but it is still serious. And you're right, it's the communal aspect of it. It's so intimately communal now. All sin, in a sense, is communal. It affects the community, not just me, but there is a direct community. Like, there is at least two persons probably involved. Or if it's, say, pornography or something like that, there are other persons still involved. [00:53:32] Speaker A: It still hurts other people. [00:53:33] Speaker B: Yeah. Even if not necessarily in the immediate physical intimacy. They have been involved in the production of the material that's being used to watch or whatever. And I think also, it is a sin where there is a very clear what some people call the psychosexual aspect of it. There is a psychology and some very, very powerful biochemical things happening in your body when you engage in the sexual act. And those chemicals and those processes exist for a reason, and that reason is really good. It's for bonding. The bonding. It's supposed to bond spouses together. It's what it is. Bonding and babies, the two b's of the gift of our sexuality and the sacredness of it. But if that bonding is just disordered, it's being used all around town, those things are still going on, those things are still happening. And so there's a real deep sort of imprinting, in a sense, on the person memories. Addictions, behavioral addictions, stuff like that. Of course, too. You've mentioned it. You started with it always involves one other person. Right. It's more. Than just one person. The communal aspect of it, we've got to remember, is that the sexual act is a reflection of the communal nature of God, the Trinity. So the sexual act within marriage and its fruitfulness and everything else really is quite a powerful imaging of the Trinity. Both the husband and wife give of each other in total self giving love, and then their love can become fruitful, and you give that love a name when it's born. It's quite a profound thing. So what that means is that it's a distortion of the face of God too, when we engage in sexual sin. It's not just other people involved, but it's a distortion of the face of God when it's disordered and a distortion of the image of God when it's disordered. One thing I think is worth pointing out here too, just before we move on to the next question, that is this, that the Christian call when it comes to sexuality is a call to sexual holiness. It's not a call to heterosexuality. It's not a call to marriage. It's whatever state you're in, whatever struggles you are grappling with. It's a call to sexual holiness to have a right order and a right ordered sexuality. So you don't engage in sexual acts outside of marriage between one woman and one man and whatever form that might take. And that holiness literally means just to be set apart. But some have also said that you could talk about holiness as being wholeness, and I think that's true. And even if you are single, there's a sexual holiness you're called to, and it's also a wholeness. You're not incomplete. You're not incomplete if you're not married. There's something god has something else maybe for you. Even if it's a single vocation or it's a period of singleness, you're not inferior, you're not lesser. If you're struggling with, say, same sex attraction, the call is to holiness. You haven't failed if you're not heterosexual. All of us fail when we fail to live up to God's calling for our sexuality, whether we experience same sex attraction or it's a heterosexual attraction, whatever it is. I think that's important to point that out. Is there anything else you want to say on that one? [00:56:44] Speaker A: No, you covered it. [00:56:45] Speaker B: Yeah, you're a zinger of a sound bite. What was that again? Just give us one more remember? Yeah. That's brilliant. That is so good. Okay, second question, then. How do you grieve together in marriage? What does that practically look like? [00:57:00] Speaker A: Really interesting question, isn't it? I think it depends on what or who you're grieving. Yeah. You sort of immediately jump to a who, don't you, when you read that question? But it could be wrong. But under that assumption it depends. [00:57:13] Speaker B: Well, can you break that down a bit? You say, what or who? [00:57:16] Speaker A: What do you mean by what immediately? I think from a personal point of view, I remember when your father passed away that's my understanding of that question. But I wonder if this person may possibly be talking about a miscarriage or something or a stillbirth or something along those lines where you're both grieving because you grieved. Your father passing away differently to the way I did because you have a completely different relationship with him and knew him for a much more extended period of time and all of his ups and downs and everything and had a childhood relationship with him which I didn't. Whereas if you're grieving a miscarried baby that's passed away, a baby that's died early, or a child even later on, we have a friend who lost a daughter at sort of seven or eight. That's a different type of grief, I would argue, and something that maybe you would a child, I think maybe you would grieve together a bit more. In some ways, yes. Whereas you and I probably grieved your father together separately. [00:58:13] Speaker B: Yeah, well, can I add to that, too? Is also there could be a what? Let's say you had a plan for your family life or a big investment, and you were robbed and all of your money stolen. Now there's no way of recovering it, no way of bouncing back, and you have to grieve the loss of what you hoped for. I know people, friends of ours who have children with disabilities talked about the sense of having to grieve and to. [00:58:38] Speaker A: Let go of the dream or the. [00:58:40] Speaker B: Ideal, the plans they had in mind for their child and just receive the gift of the child. So there's a grief in all of those kinds of things, too, right, yeah. [00:58:47] Speaker A: But I think in terms of grief, a loss of a person yes. As far as when your father passed away, from my point of view, it was my job to support you in that grief and to be there when you were ready to talk, which wasn't actually for a while after, because you had to help run the organize a funeral and do all the practical stuff. And I saw my role more as the support person for you to give you the space to do that and to help you practically how I could. And then it wasn't really until a week or two later that you really were ready to have some more deep conversations about that loss. In fact, it was probably over a period of a few months, really, that. [00:59:30] Speaker B: We unpacked drilled, carried on, carried and processing. That's a good point. [00:59:35] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:59:37] Speaker B: That's the practical aspect then, of yeah. [00:59:40] Speaker A: And I think there's an element of together but apart in that, and probably even with the loss of a child, to be honest. I mean, that's, you know, we're not something we've had to suffer through, but we've watched friends go through it. And I think you can be too separate in your grief. It's really important that you give each other that time and that space and bit of patience and a bit of silence and just yeah, patience. [01:00:03] Speaker B: We talked about that earlier on. Right, yeah, that's a good point, because it's kind of like if you think about athletic pursuits, right. I think this is a good metaphor to compare it with. No two athletes are the same, and they're just not going to run a race the same way, and they're not going to be at the same stage together throughout the course. As long as they finish together, that's the key. And as long as they know they're together in it, that's also the key. But 1 may be running off ahead while the other is still back a bit. And I think as long as the third point is probably as long as one doesn't give up and just sit down, that's a trap. Maybe the temptation to say, oh, no, I'm grieving in my own way and what I've actually done is I've stopped and I've fallen into despair like a pit. So you've got to be careful of that. But, yeah, I think I imagine from what I've seen and what I hear from those who've been through very serious levels of grief, like losing a child, for example, that consistently what you hear is these things are real toxins to marriage and relationships. And a big part of it, absolutely, is the impatience that comes and that inability just to sit with the other. And you know what I mean? It's huge. It's life altering, and also it never goes away. I think practically, you've got to accept that a person is a relationship. It's an intimate part of who you are when you've given yourself to someone and then you lose them, and that doesn't end with each passing year, things change, and hopefully they do get easier and the emotion gets less intense, but that reality never disappears. It's not like you suddenly just stop thinking about it. [01:01:43] Speaker A: That's right. [01:01:48] Speaker B: Gosh, that's a good question. I think practically, too, I guess there's probably signs you got to look out for. Like, if you do think things are getting into despair with the other person, you've probably got to have a conversation initially and then maybe even be considering, well, how do I get support for this person? [01:02:06] Speaker A: If it needs right is always an option. Don't be afraid of that. [01:02:11] Speaker B: Yeah. And I know people, and I've heard from them that they talk about there's a PTSD often involved, too. You go back into the grief and you just got to be aware of that, in a sense. How do you grieve together? Well, you kind of can't together, but you do grieve with each other. Does that make sense? [01:02:34] Speaker A: Yes. [01:02:35] Speaker B: Like, you talked about this for you, here I am grieving, but you're in a different place. But we are together. We're with each other in that, but we're not grieving together in that. [01:02:49] Speaker A: You're not going to grieve in the same way. [01:02:51] Speaker B: No. [01:02:52] Speaker A: Yeah, because you have a specific relationship with the person you've lost. So your grief will be specific as well. [01:03:00] Speaker B: Yeah, gosh, it's a complex. [01:03:02] Speaker A: I think keeping those lines of conversation and communication open and being aware of where the other person is at I think is important. [01:03:10] Speaker B: Again, that patience article was really prescient here because I think you've got to avoid the temptation for speed and efficiency. That's the real trick. Come on, this happened two years ago. Why can't we just move on now? If there is someone in a pit of despair, yeah, okay, that's fair enough. But often that's not the case. We want the grieving schedule and the clock and the plan to work, to. [01:03:32] Speaker A: Out are you up to anger yet? [01:03:35] Speaker B: We want it, but it's not that way. [01:03:36] Speaker A: Everyone is different point, though, and I've seen this a lot in guys. Often grief will manifest as anger. [01:03:43] Speaker B: Oh, heck yeah. [01:03:44] Speaker A: And I think much more in men than women. Maybe I'm generalizing too much. No, I think you're right that they're angry, and sometimes the anger gets directed at their partner. Sometimes it gets directed at God. Sometimes it's just the universe. But it's just to remember that that if you're dealing with a husband or wife that's particularly angry that they're still very much in that grief. [01:04:08] Speaker B: And I think that's where you've got to be careful the excesses. Again, so just like despair, an anger that becomes rage and is destructive and should not be tolerated, there's no excuse for that. And so don't lie down in the face of a rage fueled spouse or boyfriend or girlfriend or whoever it is that's doing that. I think also prayer is an essential component, and I think this is the moment where you got to I often talk about the prayer of an honest man or the prayer of Job. It's the trials of Job man, and it's the prayer of Job. And it's just you got to have that honest dialogue with God. And if you're frustrated, you're angry, whatever. You just got to say, look, God, I am angry, and I don't understand acknowledge it. The worst thing you can do is go for the sort of push it away, trite Christianese sort of. Oh, no. I must put on a pretend pious face and I must say, I know, God, that you know all that is happening and I have absolutely no questions to ask whatsoever. And I just willingly submit. And I will now quash all of my uncertainty and all of my frustrations and no, no. Speak to God. He's listening. He's right there. Speak to him. And if you look, what does the name Jacob mean in the scriptures? To wrestle with God. That's what it means. And so we need to adopt that. And you read the Old Testament, you see that wrestling with God. In fact, you see in the New Testament, think about the Canaanite woman who comes to Jesus looking for a healing and he talks know, there's this beautiful interchange. People often get it so wrong. And Jesus has a bit of a laugh with her, basically, and he says, well, why should the dogs get the scraps from the master's table? And he's really looking for her to engage and to wrestle with God. And she no. Yeah. What did she say? Even the dogs get the scraps from the master's table. That was her response. Sorry. And this engagement brings the fruitfulness. The wrestling with God brings the fruit. So don't be afraid to wrestle with God. Man jacob did it all night, wrestled with the angel. The danger is this insincere, superficial. I will just accept this. I will not ask any questions. I will bury what I really think. Because if you were in a marriage and that was happening, you'd say, no, you're not relating to the other person. [01:06:30] Speaker A: That's right. [01:06:30] Speaker B: So don't do it with God either. [01:06:32] Speaker A: And I think if you're supporting someone who's grieving, it's less about what you say and sometimes more about often we want to pull out, we want to say the right thing. This will fix it. They're in a better place, whatever. And those are the worst possible things. [01:06:52] Speaker B: I don't want them in a better place. I want them in this place. [01:06:54] Speaker A: Right. Yeah. Or like, how can I sometimes people are not in a position to believe that at the time. Obviously there's an element of trust there, but if they're not ready for that, that doesn't help. So it's more about, like I said, just being there, being ready to listen. I think having those conversations where you remember our kids love it when we bring up stories about Pop. They love that because it helps them to remember him and to be happy. Yes. Who is it? Christina Rosetti, whoever it was, remember me better that you forget me and be happy. You remember me and be sad. I think you can do both. You can forget kind of that they're gone. You remember the things that made you laugh or made you happy about them. Like recently we had our school musical and we needed a walking stick for a character. And so I misappropriated Pop's walking stick that lives in our wardrobe. But the kids were Pops walking stick. Yeah. That was awesome. I thought Tom would actually love that. He'd be looking down from heaven. [01:07:51] Speaker B: He's still part of our family. [01:07:52] Speaker A: He's still there. [01:07:53] Speaker B: It's a tradition. It's a custom. It's something that's there. Yeah, that's a great point. Again, not rushing. And you got to, I think, acknowledging to the hardship, don't be tried and don't say, oh, it's all good. I often say to people in these situations, I'll say, look, man, I'll just acknowledge I'll say that it's just truly awful. I really feel for you. Or I might even say, depending on who it is, I forgot. But more of a relationship with them might say, look, God is good, but, man, these things are hard. That's right. You got to do that. So I try and do both. And like, I acknowledge again, it's job acknowledges the absolute supremacy of God, but he doesn't downplay or deny the awful tragedy and hardship and suffering he's going through. It's both. [01:08:35] Speaker A: And one of our girls the other day, sometimes I think Job's just looking down from heaven going, oh, what are you complaining about? [01:08:44] Speaker B: That is a great insight. [01:08:45] Speaker A: Brilliant. [01:08:46] Speaker B: Sort your life out, pick your bags up and get back on the road. Okay, that brings us to the third and final question. This is a great one. How am I supposed to find a Christian to marry when the church does such a poor job in this area? [01:09:03] Speaker A: Well, I did not know the church was a matchmaking service. [01:09:06] Speaker B: Well, yeah, it is a good point, though. I think there's a valid point here. But maybe it's around singleness. We don't often support single people. Yeah. And community is broken down. I suspect you'd have a lot less frustrated and unhappy unmarried Christian people. If there was strong, authentic community in our churches and they felt like they actually had a place and they weren't just in the waiting room, the sort of the cast offs who hadn't yet found a marriage partner, then they could join the rest of the gang in the main dining room. Do you know what I mean? [01:09:39] Speaker A: Like it in the real party. [01:09:40] Speaker B: Yeah, in the real party. So I think that is a factor, for sure. But how am I supposed to find. [01:09:45] Speaker A: A Christian Mary in the question? Yes, I agree. Precisely. Or should you be? I mean, it's the way the question is phrased. It's making me think, how am I supposed to find number one? It shouldn't all be on you. You shouldn't feel that it's all on you to find this. [01:10:05] Speaker B: Yeah, that's a good point. [01:10:06] Speaker A: Mythical Christian person that who knows? Who even knows if your future spouse is a Christian yet? Maybe it's your job to make that happen. [01:10:13] Speaker B: Yeah, that's a good point. [01:10:16] Speaker A: Are you hemming yourself in? I'd love for all of my Christian friends to pair up with beautifully Christian people. That would be the ideal. But in the age that we live in, maybe more realistically, you maybe just need to find a really good moral person and pray that they come around to the idea. [01:10:35] Speaker B: I'm kind of fraught on that one, and I'm torn on it because I do think that don't be unequally. Yoked. Yeah. And saying that, though, I've seen some really amazing but they don't tend to always be the norm. But there are some examples I can think of. Always the norm, where people have you've had a good moral spouse? Funnily enough, what often happens is they end up converting anyway. [01:10:56] Speaker A: Exactly. [01:10:56] Speaker B: So it's sort of like they were almost on the journey. But yeah, I think part of it, too, is maybe just in general, there is a problem in the modern age with unrealistic expectations. [01:11:08] Speaker A: How do you mean that? [01:11:09] Speaker B: We set these standards that are too high. And it is. We've got this like they've got to. [01:11:14] Speaker A: Be Christian, they've got to have a job that pays us much per year. [01:11:16] Speaker B: Yeah. They've got to be smarter than me, they've got to be this, they've got to be an athlete, they got to be good looking, sideburns can't be more than three quarters, all that. It's like it becomes a shopping fixed. [01:11:25] Speaker A: Take that off your list right now. [01:11:26] Speaker B: So what you've got to do I was reading a great book the other day where it's actually by a feminist called Feminism, feminism Against Progress. And one of the things she says is she uses a swear word, but I won't use it. She goes, you just got to lower your beep standards. And I was like, yeah, so what she's saying is, don't ever become someone's doormat, so you don't degrade yourself. But too many people we do have maybe unrealistic sort of expectations and we have the shopping list of instead of and we're also often looking for the perfect all the road signs are going to line up. What I know and I understand now about marriage so well is that actual fact. You've got to fight for it. And once you're in it, the fight doesn't end actually. That's when it starts. You've got to work at it. Work at it, fight for it. Fight for it every day. And the days where you wake up and you don't feel like being married or you don't feel in love, those are the days where you must act like you are the most married person that's ever been married. You've got to act like you are the most in love with your husband or wife that you've ever been before. And guess what happens? You fall out of that being out of love phase. You fall back into love again. It's just how it works. So the priority then is the willingness to love and basic maturity. It's not how much money they got in the bank already. Can we afford a house? Look, that stuff will come as long as they are not a reprobate, as long as they're not a drug user and they're wasting money, all those kinds of things. [01:12:48] Speaker A: Go back to Timothy. [01:12:49] Speaker B: Yeah, go back. [01:12:52] Speaker A: That's your list. It's actually in Timothy. [01:12:53] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:12:54] Speaker A: No sideburns, none of that. [01:12:57] Speaker B: Carry on. I think there is a bigger cultural question, though, that has crept into the church and there is the destruction of marriage and family culture in general. We've got this very self referential, self centric individualistic, what Roger Scrutin would call homoeconomicus human beings reduced to economic units. And we tend to think, well, what's my career as a woman? What's my career as a man? What's my worth? All that kind of stuff. And then what happens is instead of thinking in terms of how am I going to build a life with a person? I'm thinking, how am I going to build my schemes and my plans? And we reduce it often the economic. [01:13:35] Speaker A: Why can't I find someone that will slot into my life that I've created? [01:13:39] Speaker B: That's a harder thing to fight. You sort of, in a sense, you can become the victim of that kind of culture because the marriageable prospects are limited if other people around you are not seeing marriage as a priority. I totally get that. [01:13:51] Speaker A: And also that's where the Church has. [01:13:52] Speaker B: Got to step up. [01:13:53] Speaker A: I do think there's sort of a lack of single men yes. Of a certain age, again, that's the. [01:14:00] Speaker B: Church has got to step up. [01:14:02] Speaker A: How does the Church fix that, though? [01:14:03] Speaker B: The Church has got to evangelize the culture, and they've got to speak to the culture, and they've actually got to present a robust, muscular Christianity, and I don't mean a machismo kind of toxic, I'm a real man kind of thing. I mean a robust, muscular Christianity that speaks to the age, because that will appeal to there's a reason why a lot of men don't turn up. They look at it and they go, what is this? It kind of feels like a bit of an emotive social club. And you've got to connect. And it's woman as well. I think that the ones that are thriving are the ones that have got strong orthodoxy. They've got a clear vision and mission, and they're not afraid to say when the culture sticks its ugly beacon. They're not afraid to actually punch back. And I mean, in charitable love and to snap the beak of the secular culture. They don't just submit. And so what happens is that draws people in. There's a sense of clarity. There's a sense of guardrail and unsurprisingly friends of ours who are pastors of a Protestant church. And he was just saying that how these people are now in the church. They're coming in and then they're meeting each other and they're getting married, and it's been several of them over the last year. Or be. I think if the vibrancy of your worshiping community is there and the Holy Spirit is present and guess what will happen? It'll be fruitful. [01:15:23] Speaker A: It will be so what's the answer to this person, then? Go and find a better church. [01:15:28] Speaker B: Good question. [01:15:29] Speaker A: Maybe go overseas. Find a really good conference to go to. [01:15:32] Speaker B: I think you've got to first of all, you've got to do your own honest, critical self evaluation, and you've got to do a self audit. How much of this is me? How much of this is out? [01:15:41] Speaker A: How much am I actually putting myself out there? [01:15:42] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:15:43] Speaker A: And in what spheres am I doing there? [01:15:45] Speaker B: Yes. And so I think you've got to audit things like, are my standards unrealistic? Are there problems in my own life? Am I shifting the blame when I all that kind of stuff? Or is it all these outside factors that are going on, the culture I'm in, all that kind of stuff. So I think that's absolutely essential. You got to do a self audit. And then I think, yeah, you do have to start making some hard decisions about all of this. Well, where am I going to go? Do I need to actually start making a big change in what I'm doing here? Do I need to shift to a new location? That's the reality of it. How committed am I to this outcome? And then the other thing you've got to remember is this, and this is really important. We often forget this. The church is you and I. So often we go, oh, the church, as in everyone else out there, is not doing the job I want them to do. But hold on. What are you doing to change that culture? So maybe it's a matter of saying, okay, well, what can we do? Realistically, I'm a big subscriber to the leadership motto of Lieutenant Colonel Hal Moore, and his motto was, there is always one more thing you can do. And I really struggle to believe there's ever a situation when you go, Nah, I've done everything and there's nothing. I just got to resign myself. [01:17:03] Speaker A: Too old now. It's obviously not meant to be for me. [01:17:06] Speaker B: I'm like, no, I read about a couple today in a rest home who met each other and got married. Yeah, like, just a couple of days ago. Yeah. And they're like, yeah. He walked in and I knew. Hilarious. I was like, yeah, there's always one more thing you can do. So I think what you've got to do is you've got to, I think, go, okay, well, if I'm stuck in Podunkville out the back of nowhere and there are no thriving Christian communities that I can be part of, well, then maybe I need to move and stop saying I put myself out the back of. Beyond that, I can't meet anyone, or I got to get back to trusting God. If I'm called to be in this space, trust God. Trust God that he's got you here right now for another reason, and that when the time is right, that will happen. And I think the other thing, too, is that you've also got to say, okay, I am part of the church, so what am I doing? Maybe I could start my own singles ministry or whatever. Maybe we need a singles group in our church where we just get together and then we invite friends and others, and that starts to draw a community. And then suddenly, lo and behold, out of that community, one day I meet someone. I really do think it's hard because the culture is so antithetical to this. I do get this. [01:18:16] Speaker A: Yes. [01:18:17] Speaker B: And this is one thing I worry about for our kids. But you've got to find a group of people who are willing to just say, you know what? Marriage is a priority. Let's stop mucking around and stop obsessing over self interest and careerism ahead of what's actually important. And that's hard because you can't force others into that. [01:18:33] Speaker A: No, that's right. [01:18:34] Speaker B: You got to try to evangelize the culture into that. So, yeah, intentional community is a big part of that. And I think a big part of that is building it. And also, discern, be discerning the Christian call, again, is not a call to marriage. It is a call to holiness. And maybe your calling, as hard as you might find this, is that you're not called to marriage. Now, I'm not saying that's. Definitely not for everybody. [01:18:57] Speaker A: That's right. [01:18:58] Speaker B: But it is something to ask, have I discerned that factor? Because maybe I'm pushing against something. God. Even better. I'm thinking, oh, this is a stone when he's really giving me bread. So, yeah, there's a whole lot wrapped up in that. But I get it. The person who asked that question, I totally get it. Because you're right, the church is not intentional community is not being fought for and fostered by the church, and you need that. Our teaching around marriage and family life and prioritizing, it's not we're often muddled or a very weak or ineffectual voice against the culture, and we're often not evangelizing enough. So no new souls coming in the door. Potentially handsome marriageable souls. Yeah, all of that's got to be happening, too. [01:19:40] Speaker A: Big question. [01:19:41] Speaker B: Big question. And another big episode. On that note, let's wrap things up. Katie, do you have any actually, before we get to that, I'll give you. [01:19:50] Speaker A: No more sound bites left. [01:19:51] Speaker B: I'm all out. Yeah, have a think about any last sound bite that you want. I'll just say, folks, don't forget to share this episode. If you liked it, share it with your friends and family. Share it around. Share, share and share a like that's what we say. Subscribe. If you're not already a subscriber, give us a rating if you can. Whatever platform you're listening on, don't forget, if you want to support our ministry, we are totally dependent on the providence of God and donor driven ministry. So please go to either. Patreon.com left Foot media. If you become a $5 monthly patron, you get access to those other cultural and political commentary podcasts each week. And also you can do it through Lifenet.org NZ. Our bank account details are found there. And if you're in New Zealand, you will get a tax rebate each year for your charitable donations. So, Lifenet.org NZ, the links are in today's show notes. Don't forget. Last but not least, you can ask your [email protected] or Lifenet.org NZ. And I should say, it might not be a question. It might be a topic that you want us to unpack or a scripture you've read and you say, I don't understand this. Can you give us a bit more insight? Whatever it is we'll. Do our best to tackle it with. [01:20:55] Speaker A: All of our lack of expertise. [01:20:57] Speaker B: We will get out our old humble humble our old Britannicas. We will go to the old juggle. [01:21:02] Speaker A: Brennan'S only got the A. We're going to get any topics that start with A we're covered. [01:21:06] Speaker B: Yeah. Any questions? Reload those topics beginning with A. We are totally covered, man. We'll go back to the Commodore 64 and warm it up for two days and then find our answers. Okay, folks, on that happy note, don't forget live by goodness, truth and beauty, not by lies. And we will see you next time on The Little Flock. [01:21:23] Speaker A: See you then. The little flock is a joint production of the LifeNet Charitable Trust and Left Foot Media. [01:21:37] Speaker B: If you enjoyed this show, then please help us to ensure that more of this great content keeps getting made by becoming a patron of the [email protected] Left Foot Media. [01:21:48] Speaker A: Thanks for listening. See you next time on The Little Flock.