[00:00:06] Speaker A: Hi, my name is Katie Malone, and.
[00:00:08] Speaker B: I'm Brendan the Husband.
[00:00:09] Speaker A: And you're listening to the little Flock, the podcast that offers practical insights about living a counterculture of goodness, truth, and beauty in a world of increasingly hostile secularism and indifference.
[00:00:19] Speaker B: So if you're looking to learn from two imperfect followers of Christ about how to live like the wheat amongst the Darnell, this is definitely the podcast for you.
Hi, everybody. Welcome along to another episode of the Little Flock.
[00:00:36] Speaker A: It's great to be here.
[00:00:37] Speaker B: It is indeed great to be here, isn't it, Katie? We are now closing in on the end of the year, though.
[00:00:42] Speaker A: Absolutely.
We're in towards the end.
[00:00:45] Speaker B: I can't believe. Honestly, I can't believe 2023 is almost over. We've got what?
[00:00:50] Speaker A: Don't count.
[00:00:51] Speaker B: Six.
[00:00:51] Speaker A: Not allowed to count.
[00:00:53] Speaker B: Mental, isn't it? So what that means is we are counting down to with the little flock, we're at the end of another season, shall we say? So we've got an awesome interview for you today. We're going to be a little bit different in this episode. It's not the usual Q and a type format, and goodness, truth and beauty. We're just going to spend the whole time with this interview that we recorded earlier with a guy called Andy Mullins. You'll hear a bit about him and his background as we start the interview. So I won't introduce him too much now, but it's all about parenting with virtue and parenting with faith. Really, really. It was great.
We've literally just got off the chat.
[00:01:28] Speaker A: Nice for everybody to listen to other people talk.
[00:01:31] Speaker B: Yeah, not just us. So that's what we're going to do today. And our next episode, we've got another interview with an awesome lady, also from Australia, called Nikki Lysart. And we're going to be talking about how to have those awkward conversations with your kids. So that'll be fun, I'm sure.
Yeah, I imagine it will. Right? Because you got to have them sooner or later, and then that'll be our last episode for the year. And I think we might even in the next episode, maybe, depending on how long the interview is with Nikki, we might even maybe add just a little bit of Christmassy type content, maybe relevant conversation about that. And so the next two episodes are a little bit different in format than what we've had next year. There's going to be some changes. So it's exciting. It is actually really exciting. And I'm not going to say too much about it now, but basically what's going to happen is there's going to be a brand new platform and all of our content will be in one location, including the little flock. And so we're hoping, if we can, to do a few more interviews next year as well as well as know answering your questions.
[00:02:42] Speaker A: If you want some people that aren't Australian, you need to recommend them.
[00:02:45] Speaker B: Yeah, let us know. And one of the things I've been thinking about, Katie, actually, is just the ordinary wisdom of like ordinary normies who have been there and done know. They might not have written a book, they might not have a blog, they might not be known, but they have raised their family and they've done it with such goodness and virtue that you can look at and say, yeah, that person has got something to offer because their actions prove that that is the case. So next year we'll try and get a few interviews as well. But importantly, the podcast will all, it's going to be part of a new platform. Now, I'm not going to say anymore.
[00:03:19] Speaker A: At the stage, build the suspense.
[00:03:21] Speaker B: I know they build a bit of suspense. Give the crowd what they want. Mystique. Give the crowd what they want, Maximus. So yeah, we're going to build a little bit of mystique on this one. But to be fair, we're also planning and we want to make sure we get this just right. But it's exciting. It's really, really exciting. It's basically a community that you can be part of that will have both free and subscriber only content. So paid content and formation content as well. So you can actually grow and nurture yourself and faith in different topics and stuff. So it's an all in one place. So I'm not going to say anymore. I'm not going to say my lips are sealed. But what I will say is if you want to actually help contribute to the ministry work that we are doing, and that includes supporting this particular new platform, which is really going to be about helping to forge and nurture goodness, truth and beauty, an authentic Christian community, and to really nurture that cultural goodness, truth and beauty in people's lives, then please consider becoming a supporter of Lifenet. And you can do that by going to our website, Lifenet.org nz, and you will see there is a donate button there. You can become a regular AP donor or you can make a one off contribution. You might think, hey, this platform idea sounds really great. I would like to make a one off contribution just for that purpose. You can do that. So even if you're already a donor, you can do that as well. But the advantage is if you're from New Zealand and you do that, you can actually claim it back on your tax at the end of the year. So make sure you use your name and donation in the details when you do that. Again, that's Lifenet.org nz. And don't forget your questions too. If you've got questions you want us to answer on future episodes or like Katie said, the peoples that you know who would be good to interview.
[00:05:10] Speaker A: I think also if you've got any, there might be some people with specific, challenging conversation questions that might be good to. Yeah, that's true.
[00:05:18] Speaker B: Yeah. So if you do have those, that's a good point because we're filming some case studies.
[00:05:22] Speaker A: Please.
[00:05:23] Speaker B: Yeah, you're very good because we will be, I was going to say filming. We're recording that interview in a couple of weeks time with Nikki. And so, yeah, go to the contact form. You'll see the contact form if you go to Lifenet.org nz. You cannot miss it. Ask your questions for the little flock and use that as well. If you want to maybe ask questions around conflict, know, having those difficult conversations with your kids, maybe specific stuff, let us know and we'll raise that with Nikki as well. So it's a good point. That's why you are the brains and the beauty behind this operation. But yeah, it's exciting. We're going to let you know more about next year when it develops. It is exciting, though. I'm excited.
[00:06:00] Speaker A: You're pumped.
[00:06:02] Speaker B: But in the meantime, let's have a listen to this. Really awesome. And how would you describe it, Katie? I was going to say very fruitful. It was deep. Yeah, it was quite fulfilling conversation, wasn't it? Was one of those ones you're like, yeah, that was really enjoyable. So hopefully you enjoyed as much as we did. Righty, Andy, thank you so much for being with us here on this episode of the Little Flock, to have what we think is actually quite an important conversation. And we were both very privileged to hear you in our neck of the woods earlier this year, speaking about these topics of, well, we're going to talk a bit about parenting with virtue and faith in the family home. But before we start any of that, can you just tell us a little bit about your background, your curriculum vitae, what it is you're bringing to the table?
[00:06:43] Speaker C: Andy, good on you, Brendan. Katie, good to be here.
So I come out of a teaching background.
For many years, I was involved in what were called the Parents for education schools in Sydney and I was running two of those schools, those schools put a lot of emphasis on working with parents and a lot of emphasis on character education, particularly virtue based character.
And we had a mentoring program as well, which meant that I was working very closely with individual couples and also training other teachers to do so. It was a great privilege, really, because you get insights into so many families and so many of the challenges, I suppose, that are across the board.
The background to that, probably, is that the inspiration behind the schools was a Catholic priest by the name of. He's now canonized St. Jose Maria Escriva, and he encouraged parents to take full responsibility for the education of their kids and to set up schools that would allow them to do that in very practical ways, like mentoring and one on one conversations with the teachers and so on. So that's the type of school that I've been involved in now down here in Melbourne, because I moved to Melbourne ten years ago, I'm running a small university project, a little residence for uni students. I do some teaching. I teach formation of character at the University of Notre Dame in Sydney. So I fly up to do that.
And I've got a couple of books out recently as well. So besides parenting for character, which came out maybe 15 years ago in its original version, and that was very much a summary of the type of work we were doing with parents in the schools in Sydney, I now have a book out called Parenting For Faith, which has got some beautiful stories in it. And it's focused from a Catholic perspective about the parenting side of passing on our faith to children. So how do you pass on a love for prayer, a love for sacraments, that sort of idea in your family? And I've also just in the process of coming out now is a workbook that goes with parenting for character. So lots of case studies and points for discussion between parents and in groups of parents about the challenge of raising children with strong character.
[00:09:03] Speaker B: That's awesome. And those resources. We'll talk more at the end, too, about how people can track those down because that's such an important work. I guess it must be very rewarding work working with parents in that space.
[00:09:13] Speaker C: Oh, big time. Absolutely. It's a privilege because in the end you would feel that if you're working with parents in a mentoring role of their children, you're the one who's getting the most out of it.
It's quite striking, really.
One of the sort of core principles I suppose I like to keep coming back to is that human beings by Christian anthropology are fulfilled with in love and truth.
And it's so important, therefore, that we find ways to get out of ourselves and to be working closely and mentoring young people is just a privilege. I mean, it gets you out of yourself.
[00:09:50] Speaker B: Awesome. Well said.
When you came to our neck of the woods early this year, one of the talks you gave was parenting with virtue. That was the big sort of promo. What does that phrase mean to you? If you could sum that up, what does that mean? Because I guess you could throw around a phrase like that and be very trite about it all. But what does it mean?
[00:10:09] Speaker C: Good. It means being proactive about building strengths that your children will need in their character, that type of idea. So think of the what's the toolbox that you want to give your kids so that they can cope in life?
And the tools in that toolbox are habits in their character, which they can then use to negotiate all the challenges of life. One of the beautiful things about virtue, the development of virtue, is that it's flexible. It's not just how to respond in a very particular situation, but it gives you the internal strengths to manage yourself and to think clearly so that whatever life throws at you, you can handle it. That sort of idea.
[00:10:50] Speaker A: I find the phrase parenting with virtue very interesting because I think it puts the onus on the parent to have the virtue first and often. I think in today's society the kids are expected to have the virtue and the good behavior without being led. So what would be your advice for a family to start that journey of parenting with virtue?
[00:11:08] Speaker C: Yeah, start before you get married.
It's really interesting. I'm used to teaching children doing their last years of schooling, and you can't learn to do well in your end of your exams. At the end of schooling, if you just start at the beginning of year twelve, it's a long project where you've developed habits of how to work hard and focus your attention and so on. But in parenting it's a bit the same, I suppose, isn't it, that you can't give what you haven't got. We have to be good to do good. Those sorts of ideas, in a sense, they're trite, throwaway sayings, but there's timeless truth in those, because they come from the ancient Greeks originally, and they'd talk.
[00:11:50] Speaker B: About the habitus too, wouldn't they? Just exactly what you're saying. You don't become good at virtue once. It's a habit that you become better at by practice.
[00:11:58] Speaker C: And that's the beauty of it, that it's a facility to act in certain ways and let's talk at a natural level. First, or the moral virtue level. Of the four cardinal virtues, two of those virtues are about managing our emotional life. Like every good psychology text that you come across talks still about how pain and pleasure are sort of primary motivators in a person's life.
And to manage pleasure is crucial. I mean, if we just go wholeheartedly after pleasure whenever we see it, we're going to have lots of problems in our lives. The delay of gratification is a really important idea in character, and that's temperance, if you like, that we know how to manage our own desire for pleasure. Second, we have to know how to manage our own aversions, because if we just avoid everything, that's difficult. We also won't achieve very much in life, and we'll make a lot of mistakes.
Just the very love of comfort can get in the way of a person excelling, if you like.
They're the two virtues. Temperance and fortitude are the two virtues that enable us to manage our emotional responses, if you like. And it's good to condition those to train ourselves or to train children so that they can manage these things. But then, on top of that, justice and prudence, classically, are always understood about the virtues of our intellectual life. So prudence is about being able to live in reality and set the right goals for ourselves, not kid ourselves.
And you can see more and that. I don't know where New Zealand is at in terms of gender theory and stuff, but it's amazing how we can convince ourselves that things are real and it's just not real sometimes.
[00:13:45] Speaker B: Well, that prudence, too, is important. We hear a lot about. People talk about humility being so important, but prudence is also about the right ordering of the virtues, isn't it?
[00:13:54] Speaker C: That's a good point, yeah.
Classically, they talk about prudence as a chariot driver. So you got these wild horses in front of you, which are your capacities, your strengths, if you like, but you've got to manage them and set the right goals for yourself.
And justice is very interesting virtue, because I think Aristotle and Plato always touched on it, but they didn't quite get it. I don't think it took really Christian thinkers like Aquinas to understand that justice is the virtue of the will, that every choice we make, every choice we make must take others into account. And there's no room, therefore, for self indulgence and self centeredness. And that's very big. I think that's a blind spot, to be honest, in the way that we're raising kids.
We have to raise kids so that they're selfless and they will be very happy if we can help them to do that, because then they will be able to love.
[00:14:47] Speaker B: So in a sense, really, and you'd be very familiar with this in your study. And being a man of the world of education, it's really the influence of Jean Jacques Rousseau, the Enlightenment thinker, is huge in our age. Right? And this is this blank slate idea that really we're having to say, no, that's not correct. Children are not wiser because they have less societal corruption, quote unquote, on them.
They are born with that same struggle that we all have towards concupisance our fallen sinful nature. And we have to actually work hard to overcome to train towards virtue. Right.
[00:15:23] Speaker C: It's fascinating, isn't it? Think about what we understand by Original sin. Aquinas explained that original sin, and obviously this is a topic over the centuries which has been much discussed and many mistakes have been made, I suppose. But probably one of the final words in Catholic thinking on original sin came from Aquinas, where he talked about Original sin is a privation of Grace and of virtue. So in other words, Adam and Eve lost this close union with God that they had grace, and it's a privation of virtue. They originally had dominion over their passions and their sin was a sin of pride, but they lost that dominion over their passions. And what that means is the whole task of education is to regain grace and virtue.
[00:16:20] Speaker B: It's a great point. Great point.
[00:16:23] Speaker A: It's beautiful. Yeah. So when we talk about parenting with virtue and trying to build those virtues in our kids, and this is something like, I keep coming back in my mind to this example of our son Nathaniel. He's just turned eleven today and we've been trying to get him to make his bed in the morning. Literally, he's shocking. He hates mornings. He hates having to decide what to eat for breakfast. He'll lie on the floor for ten minutes while he's thinking about it. So getting him to make his bed on top of all that and brush your teeth and get dressed for school. But the one thing we've been really nailing is his bed making. And we gave him the day off today because it was his birthday.
[00:16:55] Speaker B: Lovely.
[00:16:56] Speaker A: So I've just gone and made it for him.
[00:16:57] Speaker C: But we should have brought him into the studio with exhibit.
[00:17:00] Speaker A: Honestly, we could have done a little video of him, like refusing to make the bed takes ten minutes longer to refuse to make the bed than it does to just make the bed. But how important is it to role model these things to our children? Even something as simple as making the bed?
[00:17:15] Speaker C: That's a good point. It's funny, we talk about example of parents and clearly example of whatever. Example of alcohol consumption on a gross level or example of managing one's passions or so on. Anger and things like that. Clearly that plays out in the lives of kids big time and wreaks havoc. But one of the things that I like to keep coming back to is not just the example of what we do, but emotional example.
The emotions that we're manifesting. These color the life of the family, and they color the lives of your kids. And. Sorry, this may seem very distantly related to making beds.
[00:17:58] Speaker B: I'm sorry. No, perfect.
[00:18:01] Speaker C: But it's really important stuff. Because whenever there's a chore to be done, the response of the parents or the kids in the house is to pull a long face and come on, God, guys, let's just get this stuff out of the way so we can have some fun. Well, that's not a very good message about chores.
So somehow we've got to show with our faces and we got to show with our whole demeanor that, first of all, that our life is oriented to others. We do things for others. We don't do things for ourselves. So, Brendan, you can buy into this and you can whisper in your little guy's ear, this will really please mum. And that will help her. That will help him a lot. But it'll also help him realize that the most important reason to do anything is out of love for mean. I'm sure Hitler made his bed, but it didn't make him a better.
[00:18:55] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, great point. That's exactly it.
[00:18:59] Speaker C: But obviously we want to make our beds. But the problem is that we want to do it for the right reason.
Let me expand on that a little bit. How do kids get any sort of sense of value of what's important in life, really? The faces of their mums and dads, the faces of their teachers. If their faces light up about something, then the kid thinks, this is fantastic. I want that wonder, I want that joy. And if parents very serious and sad about something because of something they hear on the news in Palestine or something, then of course the kids are going to get the message. Or, gee, this is serious.
So our faces actually are teaching kids really important lessons about what's important in life. And that's a massive motivator. It's not just what we do, it's the face with which we do things is important.
[00:19:55] Speaker B: It's interesting you made that point about living for others, and that's called a self giving love being the essential motivator. Because I think there is a tendency probably to take a very stoic, do your duty type approach. But duty should always be at the service of a greater, higher good.
[00:20:13] Speaker C: Right.
[00:20:14] Speaker B: Often I've said to my son, why do we do this? I said, well, in this man's army, this is what we do. But it's more than that's essential. I heard a great story yesterday of someone who said whenever anybody asked her dad how was he doing, he always says, well, it's dependent on how those who are closest and most important to him are doing. So. In other words, his self giving to them is how you measure how are they doing. That's a measure of how he's doing.
It's quite an important insight, though, right? Because otherwise it just becomes dry, sort of reductionist. Do your duty. And the love aspect is fundamentally essential. It's missing.
[00:20:53] Speaker C: Yeah, I like that very much.
[00:20:55] Speaker B: Tell me, how do you navigate, then? Because I'm sure this must be an issue for people. In marriages you have different parental styles, even the male female dynamic. We bring a different dynamic to the world. Maybe different backgrounds or different preferences about how you would like to raise children. How do you navigate this so that it actually works? How do you find the golden mean in this area?
[00:21:17] Speaker C: Okay, lovely question.
The first point that I make in parenting for character is about unity between Mum and Dad.
And really, that's not my original thinking. All good books on parenting come back to this idea that children need really consistent messages.
The unity between Mum and dad starts with their mutual affection in the end. And obviously, sometimes you have difficult situations where Mum and Dad are not united or they're separated even. Right. But still, in everything related to the kids, they have to be giving consistent messages. That's really crucial.
They have to overcome any difficulties they have between themselves on personal issues so that they can be united for the child in everything related to his or her upbringing. But that brings some very funny situations. For example, you might have heard me tell this story. One of the fantastic guys that it was on my staff some years ago was a very forthright character. He had a big family and kids and kids and other people always knew where they stood with him. But his son is in the passenger seat in the car going home with dad after school. And the boy says to his dad, dad, it's Valentine's Day. Aren't you going to stop and get Mum some flowers?
And dad says, I don't believe in all that commercial nonsense. And then the boy says to his dad, and the dad had the Humility to say this the next day in the staff room, right? But the boy then says to his dad, dad, it's not what you believe in, it's what mum likes.
[00:23:00] Speaker B: Great insight.
[00:23:00] Speaker C: And he stopped. He got the flowers, he brought them home, they had a fantastic night. And he had the humility to talk about the next day.
In the end, you just got to keep working on living for your mean. That's crucial. And that's the biggest lesson in love that kids get.
Pope John Paul. St. John Paul talked about that all the time.
The lesson in love of God. It comes from the love between parents and the love that parents have for their kids.
[00:23:30] Speaker B: Well, that was what he wrote the jeweler shop play all about, right? Those two different couples and their children and how that plays out in their lives. So what you're saying then is we often look for a technique in the modern age, a technocratic solution to our parenting. But you're saying again, it's that love the other. And then the answers start to flow out of that. Maybe the differences start to resolve.
[00:23:52] Speaker C: Yeah. And this probably sounds a bit woolly. So how do we get to a situation where our lives are more and more based on love for others? Well, there's practical things we can do.
Practical things. Like, for example, you remember that beautiful scene in the Book of Deuteronomy, I think it is where Moses is talking to the chosen people in front of him. He's got a big assembly. They're still outside the chosen land, the promised land. And he says, listen, you've got to love God with everything you've got, with your whole heart and soul. In other words, our life has to be love. And then he says, and what's some practical ways that you do this? He said, you've got to talk about this around the dinner table. You got to put it on your walls, you got to wear it on your clothing, you got to put it on your forage, you got to talk to your kids about it. You must not forget. So the first thing is memory, that we never forget that this is our calling. Our calling is to love. But then he says, when you're in the land of milk and honey, you'll be promised to forget. Sorry, you'll easily forget this because there'll be so many distractions around.
Know, it's probably fair to say that New Zealand is the land of milk and honey, right?
And it's too easy to forget that. We've got to love with everything we've got, and we get self indulgent, we get selfish, and in the end, we forget to love.
So the first thing I think is to be convinced that this is really important. And then the second thing is to see that this is not just good human common sense, but it's also God's plan for us, that it's really important that we take this to our prayer and we pray about it and we think, how can I love other people better? And we get very practical suggestions coming into our heads that we try to put into practice with resolutions.
It sounds a little bit pious, but you're right. You have to tie it down to very practical action.
[00:25:48] Speaker A: We had a bit of a rough night at our house last night because one of the smoke alarms decided to have a fun time at 430, highest point on the room, the highest smoke alarm in the house. So I came running down at 430 and turned it off with a broom standing on the coffee table. Went back to bed. Brennan said, are you sure there's no smoke? I was like, no, there's no smoke. And then it went off again half an hour later. And I said, look, we're going to have to get up and take this thing down. And I thought to myself, as I was trying to get back to sleep at 05:00 in the morning, I'm going to tell my girls, when you're discerning marriage, ask yourself, would this man get up for me at 05:00 a.m. And remove a smoke alarm?
[00:26:27] Speaker C: I love it.
[00:26:28] Speaker A: Yeah. Because that's what it boils down to, right? The things that you don't want to do and the daily in and out of family life. It's not about, like, the grand jesters are all well and good, but it's.
[00:26:38] Speaker B: About the hidden life. Hidden life.
[00:26:41] Speaker A: Dinner every night, washing the same dish 300 times. I mean, Kimberly Hahn talks about folding the same T shirt that all seven of her kids have worn and having this real negative, oh, I'm so sick of folding this T shirt, but then actually turning that into a prayer of thank you, Lord, for this T shirt. This lasted for seven children.
[00:26:58] Speaker C: Very nice.
[00:26:58] Speaker A: And that we have money to buy our children clothes and that we have children to clothe, but actually reframing because it does wear you down. That family life can be quite wearing. And I know I've got some friends struggling with that.
[00:27:11] Speaker C: It's immensely taxing, isn't it? The first few years of a little child's life.
[00:27:15] Speaker A: Even with the big kids, we don't quite have a kid driver in the house yet, so we're still doing all the chauffeurring and it can be quite tiring.
[00:27:23] Speaker B: Well, that's where Grace is important, what you're saying about prayer. Right, Andy? And I've long believed this and experienced this in my own life. Sure, you can love to a certain point in the natural, but there's a point at which love takes some sort of supernatural grace, that people or situations are just so difficult.
[00:27:40] Speaker C: It's a really good point, Bren.
[00:27:41] Speaker A: We've got four girls and one boy, and we've talked about Nathaniel and his bed making, and we could probably get into the girls for quite a while as well. Do you think we need different strategies for girls and boys, or can you sort of parent them the same and hope for the best?
[00:27:54] Speaker C: It's a good point. I mean, in general, sort of the rule of thumb in schooling is that boys need more structure.
I think the blind spot often for boys, too, is that we need to be talking to them.
I'm sure I'm talking to the converted here, but you have to be close to your kids so that you talk trustingly and simply to your kids, and your kids talk trustingly and simply to you.
And when they're teenagers, that's going to be a game breaker. It's just ludicrous, isn't it, that kids can be posting stuff on social media that their parents don't know about.
How can you talk to strangers in a way that's more confiding than you do to your own parents? And yet, if children are not opening their hearts to their parents, then parents are not in the game. And that means you can't educate children in virtue, because virtue is about training kids responses when they're tiny and educating their mind when they're tiny, but particularly when they're older because you can't be training a teenager. It doesn't work.
[00:29:01] Speaker B: So part of that is trust. I guess then, is it, Andy, that your role modeling gives them a sense I can trust this person?
[00:29:07] Speaker C: Yeah, you're right that you're completely available for them.
There's a lot of good wisdom out there about that. You got to talk to kids at the time that suits them and stuff like that. But in the end, whatever it takes, you got to be in the game. I mean, I've seen beautiful stories from parents who've completely changed their lives, in a sense, so that they can get into the lives of their kids and share the lives of their kids. It's probably a better way of putting it. One teacher said to me, no, you got to do things with your kids that you both enjoy. There's a lot of wisdom in that.
It's not just a matter of having occasional big talks with a child. That won't work. You have to have regular chats. I'll give you a funny. This is a really nice example.
One of the families that left a massive impression on me when I was at a school called Wallamai in Sydney, in the west of Sydney.
This was a family that was universally admired. They had boys in four classes. Sorry.
And the kids were almost clones of each other and clones of the dad. I mean, dad was a big man, very gently spoken, but immensely respected by everybody, very generous guy. And the boys were the captains in their classes and really good soccer players and tough as nails in terms of cross country running and stuff like that, and worked hard. And the dad told me once, oh, you know, when my boy was in year seven, the oldest one, he did something that left me a bit disappointed. So I started talking to him and he wouldn't have raised his voice, but he would have talked to him seriously, saying, look, I don't really like this. And he said, I was so proud of my boy because he had tears in his eyEs. And then he said, the next day, the same behavior came back and he said to himself, this is not my boy's problem. My boy has a good heart. He's shown me that it's my problem. I have to give my son more support. So from that point onwards, he would have a chat each week with his son and he did this with each of his kids and he would help that child have a goal for the week and then that would be that child's goal. And then he did that consistently over the years and we saw the product six years later. It was just awesome.
So to help children have a goal for themselves, because you've been such a good weekly support in chat and I wanted to bounce ideas off them and so on. It's gold.
[00:31:31] Speaker B: That's quite beautiful. Right. Because the tendency is we sort of say, why don't you get it? Why aren't you improving? I've told you 20 times. What's wrong with you? That tends to be the go to instinct as a parent, right?
[00:31:45] Speaker C: Yeah. We can be very impatient with others, but very patient with ourselves.
[00:31:53] Speaker B: Brilliant. What happens then when we. Because it will be inevitable, I guess. We stuff up as parents. We make a bit of a meal of things and we recognize maybe where we've overreacted or we've lack of virtue that's become exposed to our own children. It might not even be directed at them. Yeah. What do we do?
[00:32:10] Speaker C: First thing is probably to think, well, what are we trying to teach to a young person? Are we trying to teach that success is always being perfect and that's unrealistic.
In fact, think of the parable of the prodigal son.
And the boy does all this dumb stuff, right? Like as boys do. He did all this dumb stuff and comes back, says he's sorry. Says he, look, I'm not really worthy to be here. And the result is not just that he gets a hug and he gets dinner, but he's closer to his dad than when he started.
And this is consistent teaching of the Catholic Church that when we come back to God repentant, then we're actually closer to God than when we started.
That's crazy thinking, but that's the reality.
And so we have to help kids understand that, that when they stuff up, they come back, they get a hug and say, sorry, and we're closer than ever. I'm not disappointed in you, and I don't hold this over you. We're actually closer than ever because that's the way God operates. And who's telling us that story? It's Jesus talking about the Father, and nobody knows God the Father. Like, it's. I just find that very moving, that whole idea that we all make so many mistakes and yet afterwards, as long as we say sorry, we're closer than when we started.
[00:33:41] Speaker B: Yeah. Well, I've heard other parenting experts talk about this idea of rupture and repair and how after a rupture, as long as there is a repair, there is that same principle. It's stronger having been through the rupture. Yeah, but I guess the question is, well, I guess the important thing is back to virtue. If you're a parent and you make a mess of things, humility becomes essential in that moment.
[00:34:03] Speaker C: Right? It's really true. And it's a life skill, isn't it? To be able to say sorry and to be able to accept forgiveness and to give forgiveness is a life skill, and relationship is going to depend on it.
[00:34:14] Speaker B: What would you advise parents then? Who? Maybe if they discover there is vice in the family home. So maybe it's something that has been hidden, that's been revealed, or maybe they discover, I don't know, something that's been going on at school with one of the kids or bullying between kids that they didn't know about in the family. What should they do?
[00:34:32] Speaker C: We had a really great visit years and years ago into the schools in Sydney by a gentleman who had 16 children. His name was Rafael Pick. He's now passed away, but he was like everybody's grandfather. He was just marvelous.
And believe it or not, his son ended up as the chaplain of the school in later years. But Rafael always used to say he was so positive and he was a very successful businessman, so I'm sure he had a way of pushing things along. Right. But he would always say that when there's a Cris, be happy, because now you can see the problem.
[00:35:11] Speaker B: Awesome.
[00:35:11] Speaker C: And that problem was always there, but it was hidden. But now that it's come to the surface, now you can deal with it.
Every problem can be sorted. That's really important.
But if it stays under the surface, you can't deal with it. So I think that's a very positive way of looking at challenges.
[00:35:31] Speaker B: So don't panic. First off the bat.
[00:35:33] Speaker C: Yeah. Now, we can see that not only can we see that there is a problem, but we can start to come to grips with that problem, to get a solution.
[00:35:41] Speaker B: Is there a next step? Do you think that's kind of essential? Because obviously it depends what the problem is to what strategy you would apply, but you're now in a situation where something's been revealed, you're not panicking. Do you need to give yourself a bit of space?
What do you do as a parent?
[00:35:58] Speaker C: The more we can turn issues into teaching opportunities for kids, the better. I'll give you a tough example. It's a real example that was told to me by one of my ex students.
He said that he was already 19 and he came home and he was very morose because of something that happened. And he wasn't talking at the dinner table and his sisters were there and his mum was there and his dad was there. And this went on night after night. And finally his mum blurted out, what is the matter with you? You're acting like you've made a girl pregnant. And he said, Mum, I have. Wow.
And then the sister screamed and left the table. Mum burst into tears and left the table. And he's left there with his father.
And, I mean, we've got a crisis here.
[00:36:46] Speaker B: Yeah, it doesn't get much more crisis than that.
[00:36:50] Speaker C: And there's a big pause and I know dad. Dad's a big man, but very, very kind hearted man, but also forthright. And then he just says to his son, what are you going to do?
Just asks him the question.
And the way the boy talks to me about it. He says, we had a wonderful conversation, and I'm so grateful to my father for that. And we had a plan which he took responsibility for. And now, you know, ten years later or twelve years later, I've met his daughter. She's a wonderful girl. She's a really wonderful girl. And he's on very good terms with the mother of the child, even though they haven't married and they're doing their very best to raise his child. I mean, it's quite striking how a parent's poise at the right moment makes all the difference.
[00:37:46] Speaker B: Yeah. Because that could have very easily ended very disastrously.
[00:37:51] Speaker C: That's right.
[00:37:51] Speaker B: Including something like abortion, for example. And that first initial couple of moments are probably the gold.
[00:37:59] Speaker C: That's right. Yeah.
From the sublime to the ridiculous. Another friend of mine, he's got a big young family, and when he comes to the front door at night, after a heavy day at work, he says the first 10 seconds are crucial.
[00:38:15] Speaker B: Awesome.
[00:38:16] Speaker C: Because all the kids run to the front door to greet him when he comes. And if he's not present for them, if he's thinking of something else when he comes in or he pushes past them or is a bit perfunctory, he said that time won't come back. You got to grab the moment.
[00:38:30] Speaker B: Wow.
[00:38:30] Speaker A: That's right. They won't be running to the door to greet you forever, will they?
[00:38:33] Speaker C: That's right.
[00:38:35] Speaker A: So if you had to narrow it down, and I realize all the virtues are very important, but are there ones that you will prioritize for family life?
[00:38:43] Speaker C: Oh, lovely point. Yeah. I think think of justice and charity.
Let's just talk for a second about, before I answer this, please. Kay.
Let's talk about how the faith, hope and charity fit in with the cardinal virtues, because I think that's quite important.
[00:39:00] Speaker B: Awesome.
[00:39:02] Speaker C: If we talk about prudence as being able to make objectively good choices in a field of reality, if you like.
[00:39:09] Speaker A: Right.
[00:39:11] Speaker C: Having a good conscience and whatever, how does faith inform prudence? Because faith shows us the complete reality.
Faith shows us who we are in relation to God, in relation to our creator. It shows us that we have a loving father. It shows us that Jesus has given all this for us, and what are we doing in return? Sort of. This is. So faith gives us the complete reality and helps us make our choices within that field of enhanced reality, if you like. It's not Just beliefs, it's reality. I think that's really important distinction.
And what's charity? Well, Aquinas talks about charity also as the virtue of the choice.
Once a person is in grace, is baptized, and we're children of God, and this gets a bit theological, sorry. But once God is within our soul, we're living in Christ.
We can be other Christs. We have to act the way that Christ would act. We have to lend ourselves to Jesus. And that means every action, every action can be performed with love of God, with charity. So just as the ancient Romans could perform every action with justice, we have to perform every action not just with justice, but with charity, with the very love of God.
Obviously, that's a high bar, but if that makes any sense, that's what we're.
[00:40:39] Speaker B: Trying to aim for in the time we've got left. We want to talk also a little bit about nurturing faith in the family home.
Are there one or two things that you think are maybe most essential that families should be doing in this regard? Because I know it's becoming a pressing concern for people that there's a very militant, hostile, secular culture now, aggressively Antichristian, you'd say, in a lot of ways. And I think a lot of Christian families really feel the weight of that, the burden of that, and they struggle to know, well, what do we do? So we're not overbearing, but we are doing what is essential to try and give that and transmit that calling and give.
[00:41:18] Speaker C: To our good point, a few things in my head. First thing is freedom, and this really comes from St. Hazard Maria. But he would insist the importance of raising young people to use their freedom, that we're raising them not for compliance, but for their own convictions, if you like.
And so that means the only way we can get there is very much sharing from the heart and talking with deep trust, sharing in trust about what's important in our lives.
Obviously, sometimes it's a terribly difficult challenge for parents when they've got a teenager who doesn't want to practice and go to church with their family or whatever. Right? But ideally, we want to try and head those things off before they become issues by being so close to kids in their childhood and in their years before.
And that comes to the issue of how important are sacraments in the life of the family. I think the book Parenting for Faith is about passing on a love for sacraments, first of all, and I mean for a Catholic.
And I realize not all of our listeners are Catholic, but for a Catholic, we have the capacity there to go and get in front of the Blessed Sacrament. We have the capacity to go and humble ourselves before the priest in confession, and those things we believe that the sacraments are channels of grace. They're like fire hoses of grace compared to anything that we can generate to. If we raise kids in a climate where sacraments have been so important for Mum and Dad, not Mum and Dad battering the kids, but for Mum and Dad themselves, then it'll make a big difference. Can I tell you a funny story?
[00:43:01] Speaker B: Of course you can.
[00:43:02] Speaker C: Always that confession.
I have a friend in Sydney who's very forthright and told this story in a group of his friends, so I'm not telling private stories, but he's a guy who says what he thinks and he's shouting at a client who's let him down on a building site. On a building site. And he's using very appropriate building site language, like language his son has never heard. And suddenly he looks down, he's in his room and he's in his office at home, and he looks down and his boy is standing next to him. His boy is ten years old and the boy is aghast. He's just looking at his father, thinking, where did you get that language?
And then the boy turns on heel and he walks out.
And dad feels a bit bad. But the next day or the next weekend, they're at church, and the boy is standing next to his dad again at the back of the church, and it's a Maronite church, and there's confessions during Mass. And the boy says to his dad, Daddy, you're going to confession.
And dad says to his boy, do you think I need to?
And the boy just shakes his head, yes, indeed.
And then the boy says to his dad, dad, I'll go with you if it helps.
That crazy.
But he raised his son to talk to him like that.
[00:44:36] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:44:38] Speaker C: And he had the humility himself afterwards to tell his friends about it, very proud of his son.
But clearly we want to raise kids with a love for the sacraments and a love for the Blessed Sacrament. I mean, they talk about St. Teresa Lizia. Every afternoon after school, her dad would take her for a walk and they would visit the local church to make a visit to the Blessed Sacrament.
There's no substitute for this. If we don't raise kids to love the sacraments, then what are they going to love? They're going to fill that void with a lot of other things.
[00:45:09] Speaker B: One thing we're starting to discover too, in our family home is the importance of nurturing that love of Scripture as well, and that understanding of it. I realized now I learned a lot because of the environment. My family was in and I grew up with other families of faith, but we can't just assume our kids are going to know all this. You've got to actually actively.
[00:45:31] Speaker C: A mate down here in Melbourne just told me the other day we had a sort of men's group gathering and he know one of the things we've been doing is in my home we have a holy hour. And I'm thinking to myself, that's pretty heavy for little kids, right? That's what I'm thinking.
And then I said, what are you doing your holy hour? And he says, oh no, we say some prayers like they say the rosary. And then he says, each of my children has a Bible.
And I say go and get your Bibles and go and get your markers. And I suppose they're children's Bibles because they're kids, probably the oldest of twelve, I think. And they go off and he says, now we're going to read this passage together. So they read this passage together and then he says now get your marker and just think for a few minutes and underline the sentence or two that you like the most.
[00:46:15] Speaker B: Awesome.
[00:46:16] Speaker C: So they've all got their own personally marked up Bible and then they come back together and then the kids Explain why they've marked that passage. Isn't that gold? So simple but so good. Yeah, they work their way through Scripture.
[00:46:30] Speaker B: It's so practical too.
[00:46:31] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:46:32] Speaker B: You don't need to be a theologian.
[00:46:33] Speaker C: To do and you're engaging the kids hearts and heads. It's very beautiful.
[00:46:38] Speaker B: That's awesome.
[00:46:39] Speaker A: That's great. Any impediments that you would say that would stop a family from nurturing faith in the home? Like, things to be aware of.
[00:46:47] Speaker C: I think the biggest thing is leading from the.
I. I'll tell you a New Zealand story to it.
[00:46:54] Speaker B: Go for it.
[00:46:55] Speaker A: Sorry.
[00:46:55] Speaker C: It doesn't have to finish.
Was I was, I was in Mount Monganui, I was in Taronga doing some seminars on parenting.
And you probably know the landscape there, but there's this beautiful headland and I was staying at the base of the headland and I figured I've got to get up to the top of this before I leave here.
[00:47:15] Speaker B: Got to walk the mount.
[00:47:16] Speaker C: I walked the Mount. Right. So I got up there at dawn. It was a bit pagan, but I got up there at dawn to see the sun come just, it was so beautiful. And then I'm sitting on a rock on top of Mount Monganui and I've got this guy standing behind me with his boy and he says, excuse me, you're sitting on my prayer.
So it was very funny conversation. I jumped up. It was all sort of very moxieous. And I said, I'm sorry. And he says, no, you know, I'm the Baptist pastor from Tauranga down there. And he pointed down to the town and he said, there's a lot of pain down there in my people, but I come up here three mornings a week to pray over them.
[00:48:01] Speaker B: Awesome.
[00:48:02] Speaker C: And it's a good thing that our God has big ears.
[00:48:06] Speaker B: Wow, that's beautiful.
[00:48:08] Speaker C: But what's the lesson? The lesson is gold, isn't it? That when God's given us a responsibility for somebody or some people or our families, he's listening to our prayers.
The prayers of a parent are just, in the end, they're the game breaker.
[00:48:23] Speaker B: Yeah, that's such a beautiful insight. Just to finish with.
I know. Like, for example, we're about to head into advent, and I can't help but think, as you were speaking earlier on, about the interplay between faith and virtue, and you talk about how Christianity just really levels things up to a whole nother level and brings completion and fullness of truth into this arena. And it seems to me, too, that there's this great resource, if you want to call it that, in the annual liturgical calendar, because so many of these feasts or seasons allow us to highlight certain virtues, like talking to your kids about the story of Joseph, for example, and Mary. There's great virtue in that, and they're very specific to different seasons. Right. So it seems like a great opportunity here.
[00:49:08] Speaker C: It's a beautiful point. You're quite right. And we have to grab it, don't we? And the more we're living this in our own life of prayer, the better. Because then we'll have something to offer with the uni students here in Melbourne at the moment. We're running a series called Advent Apologetics, where we're looking specifically at Jesus, God and man, and what's the evidence, what's the case, if you like, and then what are the prophecies? What are the miracles? And what were the early Church Fathers saying about Jesus Christ? That sort of idea. But again, it's trying to take advantage of the season, as you.
[00:49:44] Speaker B: Yeah. Awesome, awesome. So there's a great opportunity there. We shouldn't let it go.
[00:49:48] Speaker C: Begging and main New Zealand knock over India in the.
[00:49:54] Speaker B: We were actually speaking of virtue the other night as soon as we heard the news about Maxwell's 201. My son and I finished up all of our chores at the end of the dinner table. And immediately watched the highlights of that 201.
[00:50:07] Speaker C: Well done.
[00:50:08] Speaker A: So you mentioned a couple of books that you've written. Would you like to tell our listeners how they can get their hands on those?
[00:50:14] Speaker C: Thank you very much. So the one that's come out in a couple of editions is parenting for character. And that's put out now by Veritatus Perusia Media. Veritatus in Sydney, sorry, Peruzia Media. And then a book called Parenting for Faith, which came out last year in the States by a publisher called Scepter, which these are both available online. And then coming out now will be another book called Parenting for Character Applied, which is a large format workback workbook, Sorry for parents, which I think, I mean, we'll see how it goes, but I think it's going to get some good traction because I'm hearing people don't have these sorts of resources that will help them sit down over a cup of coffee or a wine and talk about their family.
[00:51:00] Speaker B: And so that would take a more practical look at the.
[00:51:02] Speaker C: It's a very practical book about how do you foster virtue in the life of kids and how do you look at your own emotional example and all sorts of issues. There's case studies, there's questionnaires, there's tick lists, there's all sorts of things.
[00:51:15] Speaker B: Awesome. That sounds like a great resource, Andy, thank you so much. It's been a privilege, absolute privilege and a pleasure.
[00:51:21] Speaker C: And see you guys. I hope soon.
I'd love to get back.
[00:51:25] Speaker B: Well, the door is always open. We don't often.
We might compete in sport, but the door is always open.
[00:51:31] Speaker C: Lovely. Hey, good to talk to you, Andy.
[00:51:33] Speaker B: Bye bye. All righty, folks, thanks for tuning in to another episode. It was great to have you here with us. I hope you found that conversation with Andy both enlightening and enjoyable.
[00:51:43] Speaker A: Hopefully it's given you lots to think about.
[00:51:44] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, for us it was really. And I love his anecdotes.
[00:51:48] Speaker A: Yeah, he's got some funny stories.
[00:51:50] Speaker B: Yeah, we've heard him speak publicly and he's got lots of stories and some amazing ones that we didn't hear today. But, yeah, just absolutely amazing stuff. And so, yeah, great guy. And the books, please make sure you check out those books. If you're looking for a really good resource to really help you grow in your family journey and your parenting skills and stuff like that. Absolutely. Highly recommended. Katie, do you want to say anything else before we wrap this bad boy up? No, all good, I would say. I will be the man of more words then. Will you? The lady oh, hold on. I'll just remove that little shovel digging away at my ribs there. So what I'll say is this, don't forget that awesome new platform coming next year. Please, if you want to have some sort of question or conversation point that you'd like us to raise with Nikki when we talk with her, use the question form on our
[email protected]. Nz. If you've got a question in general for a future episode, doesn't have to be about difficult conversations. It could be about anything at all. Please put it on that question form and we'll answer it in our upcoming episodes in the year ahead. And don't forget, we really, really value your support of our ministry work. We can't do this work without your support and we can't grow this ministry like we want to in the years ahead without your support. So please consider becoming a donor. And you can do
[email protected]. Nz. Just go to the website, click on the donate button and everything's all there. I think that's us. All the admins done. I've done all the talkie talkie you have. Now we can do all the things. Bye bye. Bye bye. I couldn't figure out how to say that.
Thanks.
It's all getting awkward and it's like he's talking. He's still talking, still talking.
[00:53:40] Speaker A: Stop talking now.
[00:53:40] Speaker B: Yeah, now is the time to start talking. So with that, I guess we'll say goodbye.
[00:53:45] Speaker A: See you later.
[00:53:46] Speaker B: See you in the next episode.
[00:53:56] Speaker A: The Little Flock is a joint production of the Lifenet Charitable Trust and left Foot media.
[00:54:00] Speaker B: If you enjoyed this show, then please help us to ensure that more of this great content keeps getting made by becoming a patron of the
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[00:54:12] Speaker A: See you next time on the little flock.
