[00:00:06] Speaker A: Hi. My name is Katie Malone.
[00:00:07] Speaker B: And I'm Brendan, the husband.
[00:00:09] Speaker A: And you're listening to The Little Flock, the podcast that offers practical insights about living a counterculture of goodness, truth, and beauty in a world of increasingly hostile secularism and indifference.
[00:00:19] Speaker B: So if you're looking to learn from two imperfect followers of Christ about how to live like the wheat amongst the darnell, this is definitely the podcast for you.
Hi, everybody. Welcome along to this month's episode of The Little Flock podcast. My name is Brenda Malone.
[00:00:39] Speaker A: And I'm Katie Malone.
[00:00:40] Speaker B: It is great to be back with you again, isn't it, Katie?
[00:00:42] Speaker A: Absolutely.
[00:00:43] Speaker B: It's hard to believe it's almost Easter. It is now the fourth month of the year. I sound like someone declaring the town cry. It is their fourth month of the year, but the year is just steamrolling marching along. Yeah, April.
[00:00:58] Speaker A: But it's march.
[00:00:58] Speaker B: Can you march a steamroller? I see what you did there, marching into April. I'll do the dad jokes around here, thank you very much.
[00:01:05] Speaker A: The best ones from mine, anyway.
[00:01:07] Speaker B: You're about to go away on a trip. Before we talk about the trip that you're about to go away on, please, folks, if you are new here, share this podcast. If you enjoy the content, let other people know about it. Make sure that you subscribe, and if your platform allows you to give us a rating, then please give us a little rating, some stars, a comment or two. That all really, really helps the show. If you want to support our work, you can do that. There's two ways to do that. One
[email protected] leftfootmedia, and if you become a regular patron with $5 or more per month, you'll get access to all of our monthly content that we produce on Left Foot Media. And that's about I did the math the other day. It's over 12 hours worth of content, brand new content every month. Commentary, staff, current affairs, politics. There's a new interview show that we have each month. There's lots of stuff going on there. The other way you can support us if you are based in New Zealand and you want to get a tax receipt for your contribution, then just go to Lifenet.org NZ. And there's a donor page on our website there. So Lifenet.org NZ, and if you become a regular donor that way, then you can get a tax receipt at the end of the financial year and claim it back on your tax. Last but not least, we answer your questions. And if you want to send us your questions, the easiest way to do that is to go to Lifenet.org NZ. That's li fenet.org NZ. And you'll see at the very top of the homepage, there's a scrolling banner. You click on that scrolling banner and you can send us your questions. Just fill in the form. You can do it anonymously. We don't give away names or anything like that. But you can also fill out the form totally anonymously and ask any question at all that you want to or suggest topics and we will happily talk about them. Right, katie, you're going away on a trip?
[00:02:59] Speaker A: I am.
[00:03:00] Speaker B: Where are you going?
[00:03:02] Speaker A: I'm going to Paris and Italy.
[00:03:06] Speaker B: Like the paris.
[00:03:08] Speaker A: The Paris? Paris, France.
All Paris is in America.
[00:03:11] Speaker B: For those who are wondering, I'm not a dumb husband, we're doing a bit here. I am astute enough to know that my wife is about to eat away overseas with a couple of our daughters. It's a trip that's been postponed. Your awesome parents shouted before COVID hit and COVID hit and completely upended everyone's plans. Right.
[00:03:30] Speaker A: It's very upsetting, but I think actually the girls are a bit older now. They probably appreciate what they're getting more to some extent, so it's probably a good thing in some ways.
[00:03:37] Speaker B: Yeah. That's awesome. So I'll be here putting into practice a lot of what we've talked about on previous episodes of this podcast, doing my best to make sure that the dinner is not burnt each night and that our kids are not eating takeaways every single night of the week. Just five nights would be enough.
Just kidding. Katie had a sudden worried look.
[00:03:56] Speaker A: No, I think you'll be here delegating the nearly 16 year old to make sure the dinner is not burnt.
[00:04:00] Speaker B: Yeah, she is awesome, man. Absolutely awesome. Let's just jump straight into it, then, shall we? Because normally we'd be recording this podcast about the second week of the month, but because Katie's going away, we're doing a little bit earlier and we've got Easter coming up as well, so we thought it was a great opportunity to talk about stuff like that. Before we do that, though, and we answer your questions and talk about a couple of other things, there's this massive global event that has happened and it all emanated. Emanates a good word, isn't it? I love that word. It emanated out of New Zealand about two weeks ago when that lady, Kelly J Keane Minchel, who's also known as Posey Parker, she's a woman's rights activist and advocate, who came to New Zealand to speak at a peaceful event. And the event was obviously well, it was shut down by a rather angry and turned into a violent mob of people who opposed her.
And I thought, we're not going to relitigate any of that. But I just thought, Katie, it'd be interesting to get your take if you're a regular listener to some of the other Left Foot media content, you'll know, that I have actually talked about and provided quite a bit of commentary around that issue myself. But I thought it'd be interesting to hear your take as a woman. What is a woman? You are a woman.
Let's answer that question.
What was your take on that as a female? Looking at all of that whole hubbub hullabaloo and other associations, completely honest, I.
[00:05:32] Speaker A: Didn'T follow read everything about it. So I only really know what I saw in the headlines and on Facebook kind of thing.
I think that she had a good point to make. She's speaking for people that need to be heard, and that the way she was treated was basically atrocious.
[00:05:50] Speaker B: Wow, no punches. No punches were pulled there.
[00:05:54] Speaker A: Yeah. I mean, everybody's got their own opinion on things, right?
And I feel like hers should be heard.
Hers is valid in that, especially as a woman speaking about women wanting to be safe in spaces where they should be safe.
[00:06:12] Speaker B: Does that issue resonate with you, then?
[00:06:13] Speaker A: Absolutely, yeah, absolutely.
[00:06:16] Speaker B: Because the other side is saying, oh, no, it's all just a load of nonsense, and women are totally fine, and it's only these weird extremists who have.
[00:06:24] Speaker A: These trans women would never hurt anybody, et cetera, et cetera. Yeah, but I've spoken to other women that are on all different sides of the coin with regards to what they think about transgender, and they all feel generally, that women should certainly be allowed their own bathrooms, that kind of thing.
[00:06:43] Speaker B: It's pretty basic with four daughters, prisons, bathrooms, changing rooms. Crime stats is one I hadn't thought about. They talk a lot about that, how if someone who's a trans identifying person commits a crime, then why should females, or males, for that matter, really have the crime recorded against their agenda? That's a really good point, actually.
It's interesting and I don't know, did you catch the news last night? Well, you probably didn't because the news media have not covered this at all. No, but our Prime Minister last night in the press conference, he does a Monday night. For those who don't know, maybe you're overseas listener, the New Zealand Prime Minister, every Monday night or Monday evening, early evening, does a special media press conference. And this is the time where you really ask the big questions and they get turned into media stories. And so it's a big deal. Well, at his press conference last night, there was a journalist there who was just great, and he asked a really good question, and he said to him, in light of all of this, can you define what a woman is? And he couldn't answer. He stuffed it up. He sat there and literally looked at him from the podium. It felt like forever. I think it was probably 10 seconds of dead air. He just looked and wasn't sure. And then he fumbled and I don't really know. I wasn't prepared. And I suppose there's gender and I suppose there's biological sex, and people identify their own gender. And honestly, no wonder the media didn't cover it. But it's funny, I get the feeling that things like that and this is what I'd love to hear your take on is that as a bloke, I'm kind of like, Well, I'm a bloke, and I think this is dumb and it's foolish because it affects us as men as well. If you can't define what gender is, and it's all just a fabrication that exists in people's minds, then that affects all of us. But I think, as Blokes, maybe we're a little bit more I don't know, we're a bit blockheaded. Maybe we're a bit more immune to some of the stuff. So I get the feeling that these kinds of things really impact females, though, because of the unique otherness of what femininity is.
In a sense, masculinity is important. Don't get me wrong, I'm not listeners, don't panic, please don't send your complaint letters in, but masculinity is important. But it's almost like masculinity, it's a bit more straightforward, whereas what females and womanhood brings to the world is actually so beautifully unique and much more complex. And just to erase all of that, I get the feeling that females really feel the burden of that a lot more. Is that a fair assumption?
[00:09:19] Speaker A: I feel like the uniqueness of femininity is being trampled on a wee bit and it's a bit stupid, really, if you think about the women's rights battle that has raged for years and years, that it's kind of almost being trampled down again.
[00:09:35] Speaker B: Yeah, it's almost like they never established a solid anthropology, did they? Feminism became, like you'd have to say, there was an authentic feminism that started with a good anthropology and it came out of interestingly enough, it's really Christianity that it comes out of, and it's tied intimately to virtue, how you should treat people, particularly those who are more vulnerable. And I don't mean vulnerable as in sort of weak, victim, sort of helpless mentality, but what I mean is that they don't have the same strength or advantage that you might have. So blokes have a certain strength in the world, right? And so, yeah, it comes out of Christianity and then they lose sight of Christianity and it turns into, like, it's about Marxism and power and men are the patriarchal oppressors, and then all of a sudden, it's devolved again now into this very weird power game where women are actually on the losing end of it.
[00:10:32] Speaker A: I agree with you.
[00:10:33] Speaker B: Right. So I just wanted to get your thoughts on that. It's good we just sort of try and be topical, throw our thoughts into the mix.
Another topical thing was this article that appeared in the media at the end of March, 31 March, and we're not going to go into detail about the article because there's opinions and then there's.
[00:10:51] Speaker A: Opinions, and apparently opinions are news.
[00:10:55] Speaker B: Well, there's this very crass saying, but I won't I think this is an Australian saying. It was where I heard it first. Anyway, about opinions are like bottoms. Everybody has one and we don't want to see it in public all the time, thank you very much. So there's a lot of opinion out there now and we're not going to go into details on this one because it was pretty toxic, I thought. But basically the gist of it is this. I didn't realize this was happening, but apparently there's a bit of a trend happening, a TikTok trend, a social media trend. Yeah. Katie rolls her eyes every time you hear TikTok trend. You're like, okay, who's eating my uppers?
[00:11:29] Speaker A: Get exercised every time.
[00:11:30] Speaker B: Someone who's drinking Bloomin washing powder now.
But no, apparently what's happening is a lot of people are getting a line and saying, hey, look, celibacy, abstinence, not constantly having sex is actually a life saving thing. It's a really life giving thing and you should embrace it. And apparently, I'm not surprised by this because it's true. It is. And so this lady called Jana Hawking, I think she's an Australian, sort of one of those socialite social commentator type people. I think she's late thirty, s now, almost 40. I don't think she has any kids. She describes herself in this article as a collector of boyfriends, all that other stuff.
[00:12:10] Speaker A: Identifies as a teenager.
[00:12:11] Speaker B: Yeah. She still hasn't grown up, I would suggest, in a lot of ways. And unsurprisingly, she just absolutely attacks this trend, says, no, it's bad, it's wrong, it's stupid.
This is taking woman backwards and really, really poured it on thick about how I mean, she all but practically called it evil. Right.
So we thought today, rather than highlighting and looking at her negativity and then sort of critiquing it, we'd just, I guess just throw a few thoughts into the mix about the fact that we think that in actual fact, chastity, modesty, abstinence celibacy, I guess depending on your circumstance, basically virtue in our sexuality is actually a really beautiful good thing. And it's not just a moral thing, practically speaking, it is a life saver and a relationship transformer. It really is quite a powerful thing.
[00:13:06] Speaker A: Absolutely, yeah. How can you have genuine friendship if you're constantly jumping into bed with people?
And I think when you're committed to a life of celibacy or chastity, like before marriage, or once you're married to one person, you're committed to that one person, then you're not looking at each relationship for what you're going to get out of it. In that sense, you can go into all kinds of details about why jumping into bed with random people every weekend is not a good thing to do.
It's a very physical health and mental health.
[00:13:41] Speaker B: In fact, it's really dumb. Really dumb. If you are looking to take the riskiest path with your sexuality, that's how you do it.
[00:13:49] Speaker A: Absolutely.
And it would be just really nice to see in the media. If we're going to have opinions about how much she hates people being celibate, why can't we have an article about how special sex is and how beautiful it is and what a gift it is to a couple, as opposed to this kind of clickbait, which I guess is why we don't have it.
[00:14:10] Speaker B: Yeah, it's clickbait. Right. But to write off it's quite troubling to see someone writing off, like literally she calls it like it's rubbish, it's BS. It's like trying to claim that it's something that actually is good for human flourishing is just not true and you shouldn't do it. And instead you should be taking the risky path.
And the funny thing is, too, it's like, well, how would you know?
I'm a collector of boyfriends. Well, how would you know? Whereas those of us who have actually been on both sides of the track or who have a bit more experience and have lived through periods of it and who regularly it's part of who we are in our relationships because there's almost a fantasy here, right, in a sense that the human person is supposed to be having sex the whole time.
[00:14:57] Speaker A: Yeah, that's right.
[00:14:59] Speaker B: One way to really resolve that delusion is to actually get yourself married and realize that. And it's a beautiful and good thing. I know a lot of people complain about this, but I don't think we should actually you realize where the priorities really lie and that call to love is actually much bigger and it's certainly far more important than simple gratification.
[00:15:21] Speaker A: And I think it clouds a relationship as well, that if you're having sex outside of marriage or outside of a relationship, then you're not actually seeing the true relationship or seeing the person for what they are. So I know for me, living chastely before marriage and living chastity in marriage, that's not what the marriage is about. It's not what the relationship is about. You don't have to have sex to have a relationship with someone.
[00:15:45] Speaker B: No.
Yeah. And it's a funny thing. I think it's a toxic hang up from the sexual revolution, really? This flawed well, it's actually no, it's before that. It's Sigmund Freud and this idea that somehow you're in a state of repression if you're not engaging in every desire, and then that's a bad, evil thing. In fact, at one point, there were people truly who were claiming that sexual repression and some people still believe this, that sexual repression was the cause of things like Nazism in the world.
It's kind of crazy.
And sadly, even sometimes in Christianity, we can fall prey to a little bit of that not ordering our desires towards love. That's the key. Right? Love is the key. And self giving love virtue is just so fundamental to the human experience, into our sexuality. And if you don't get that, you're going to be in real trouble. And even if you're a married couple who are people of faith who are married, you're still going to be in real trouble if you think that okay, the bare minimum requirement here is that we're supposed to get a marriage license and do this in a church and then it's a free for all.
You will be in relationship trouble if that's your approach. Right.
[00:16:57] Speaker A: Well, what happens if, down the track, someone gets sick and off the table for a while because it's just not practical or fear on the other person.
[00:17:04] Speaker B: Yeah, that's right.
[00:17:05] Speaker A: What's your relationship built on?
[00:17:06] Speaker B: Yeah. And funny enough, actually, I remember someone once very wisely said to me, the devil doesn't look like a guy with red horns and a cape and a pitchfork. The devil looks like everything you've ever wanted. And I really do think that's kind of true. I can't remember who it was I heard talking about this might have been Jordan Peterson or something like that, about how I was quite surprised, taken back initially. But then the more I reflected on it, the more I thought, no, this is true, that basically having everything you ever wanted would be hell on Earth. And I thought, yeah, that is actually very, very profound and true. And so what we're seeing now is actual reports from couples who are saying, well, things like chastity in our marriage where you have periods of abstinence and stuff like that, for whatever reason, actually means that sex in our marriage, because it's not on demand, it's not on tap, it remains something special. And we're starting to see research appearing, pointed it out that people who are not constantly having sex, they find the sex more meaningful and more flourishing and more life giving as a result, because it's not just a thing that you're doing all the time. It has some special sacred meaning. I guess it's like eating treats all the time. They become boring.
[00:18:22] Speaker A: When I read the article, it made me think of an alcoholic that's going, no, everybody else is going sober. Not only the celibacy trend, but there is a trend towards less alcohol in kind of generation or two below us. A lot of them don't drink, or they're drinking alcohol free drinks, which is awesome. Like, it's great that that's out there, but it sounds like she's kind of going, well, now I'm still going to go out and have my Cosmopolitans and have my fun, and you guys are all just crazy. And that, to me, is a little bit like, yeah, you're hooked on something here.
[00:18:54] Speaker B: Yeah. Maybe she's numbing her pain.
[00:18:56] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:18:58] Speaker B: And I don't mean this in a nasty way, but it'd be interesting to come back and say 10, 15, 20 years and say to her, well, here you are now that you're what, 55? Almost 60 now, do you really think that was wise, what you were telling people?
Or was this you just not seeing the wood for the trees and missing the you're right. Sort of desperately trying to hold on to something that's not real because you're trying to numb yourself to the fact that I'm about to hit 40, I've got no kids. I don't think she's married. You know what I mean? Whereas maybe it's almost like projecting onto those other people, almost a certain jealousy or anger that you've missed out on something. I remember someone once saying to me once, too, and I thought this was quite wise. She said that when she realized that you couldn't simply just jump into bed all the time, you were forced to actually communicate about problems and solve and genuinely communicate and solve problems that appeared in a marriage.
[00:20:01] Speaker A: Conversations. Oh, my goodness.
[00:20:03] Speaker B: Yeah. Conversation. The lost art of conversation. It's funny that all these articles about how to have better sex, I suspect that people would actually like to see a lot more articles about how to have better conversations.
[00:20:14] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:20:15] Speaker B: How to talk people would get a.
[00:20:16] Speaker A: Lot more out of it, but maybe they wouldn't click on it as much.
[00:20:20] Speaker B: Yeah. How to communicate like a communication maniac instead of how to have sex like a sex maniac.
[00:20:26] Speaker A: Communication maniac.
[00:20:27] Speaker B: Yeah. I'm just borrowing the phrases here. Yes. Now, Easter is coming up this weekend.
[00:20:33] Speaker A: Oh, topic change.
[00:20:34] Speaker B: Yeah, that was a quick topic change, wasn't it? Speaking of Easter, and we weren't, but now we are. It's Easter this coming weekend, and I think we might have talked about Easter traditions on a previous episode. I thought it was Christmas traditions, but yeah, I think we something we would have talked about it's possibly something. But what we thought we'd do is we'd talk about actually Easter in light of this cool little article that we saw about how you can basically teach Easter in the domestic church. And for those who've never heard that phrase before, the domestic church is the family home. It's the place where the faith is first nurtured and taught and handed on. And it's very, very beautiful. I love that term, the domestic church. And this article, it's a pretty simple article, actually, and this guy's just suggesting some ways that maybe we could actually ensure that for our children and in our family home, easter isn't just a sort of, oh, yeah, that was it. Went to church over and done with, that we really sort of get our kids into the beauty of this thing because there's something about it that really is quite life giving and to understand and immerse yourself in that. Because if you're a Christian, then Easter is the remembrance and celebration of the life, death and resurrection of Christ. It is the life giving, saving mystery of our faith. It's quite profound. And so it is the most important thing we could reflect on. And so finding ways to do that is really good. I don't know about you, Katie, but me personally, this week, one thing I've been doing is I've decided to sort of I wouldn't wouldn't say ramp up the Lent a little bit more, but in our house, people make sacrifice for Lent. They say, well, I'm going to perhaps avoid this food that I quite like, or I might do this extra thing or pray an extra hour a week or whatever it might be for each Lent. But now that we're in Holy Week, I thought, well, what I'd do this year is I just deny myself something a little extra that hadn't been part of my Lenten thing, and that each morning in my prayer, I just sort of work through and focus on the accounts from John's Gospel leading up to The Passion sort of just trying to have like a mini retreat if you of and then leading into Easter. But in this article, this guy talks about some quite cool little ideas. So one thing he talked about, he says this as a darling. Oh, isn't it? You sure it isn't you're, right?
[00:23:04] Speaker A: Hailey Stewart.
[00:23:05] Speaker B: Wow. There you go.
[00:23:06] Speaker A: Hailey stewart fangle.
[00:23:07] Speaker B: Could be a he these days. Do you know Hailey Stewart?
[00:23:10] Speaker A: I don't know her, but I follow her on the do you?
[00:23:13] Speaker B: Wow.
[00:23:13] Speaker A: I've read her stuff for years.
[00:23:15] Speaker B: So any fans of Hailey Stewart who are listening, please apologize to Hailey on my behalf.
[00:23:20] Speaker A: Definitely doesn't identify as a he.
[00:23:22] Speaker B: Yeah, I'm so sorry. That'll learn me this typical bloke.
[00:23:28] Speaker A: Brendan.
[00:23:28] Speaker B: I've seen a headline, I've seen an I'm.
[00:23:31] Speaker A: Stuart.
[00:23:32] Speaker B: I read it. Right. I can't find the source in the fridge. Where is know that's one of those moments.
Anyway, let me read to you from Haley's article. Sorry. Haley Stewart. As a child, my mother always played Handel's Messiah. So this is sort of in the lead up to Easter and around that time, which tells the story of God's love for humanity. From Old Testament readings and prophecy to the annunciation and all the way to the Resurrection. Other beautiful options are barks, St. Matthew's passion. I remember that actually when I was a kid, my mum had that on a tape or something that you can actually hear on Spotify. There's this cool group of nuns called the Benedictines of Mary and they have a cool little thing, I think it's still on Spotify called Lent at Ephesus. And it's just them, the nuns, singing these beautiful choral, traditional Lenten Christian hymns and chants and stuff. It's quite beautiful. So I thought that was quite cool. Right. Immersing your home in an Easter tone or ambiance.
[00:24:33] Speaker A: The music is very important, I think, isn't it? And it's the same with us for Christmas and event, an event I'm quite big on. You don't listen to Christmas hymns until Christmas. And I think it's important with Lent that try and keep things a bit more somber.
[00:24:47] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:24:47] Speaker A: Our children have a great tradition of getting strep throat at Lent and this year is no different.
So when you talk about leaning into Lent this week, I was like, oh, so that's going to be us waking up all the time to dish out.
[00:25:00] Speaker B: The painkillers to a young lad with strep throat? Yeah.
[00:25:03] Speaker A: Not a good patient, it turns out, because he doesn't get sick very often. So he's like, what's actually happening right now? He's like, his dad not happy about it.
[00:25:10] Speaker B: He gets angry at the sickness.
[00:25:11] Speaker A: Very angry.
I've definitely had my arm slapped away a few times over the last few.
[00:25:16] Speaker B: Speaking of, in Lent, if you're listening and you're a Catholic, you'll know that in Lent we don't say the alleluia. And I believe I'm pretty sure the Anglican tradition is still doing that, and some others do as well, some other traditions. So we sort of drop the alleluias for Lent and then we bring them back in a big way for Easter, at Easter time. Because as Pope John Paul II once famously said, we are Easter people and alleluia is our song. And so it really sort of ramps up the celebration of the resurrection.
[00:25:48] Speaker A: Because Hallelujah means he has risen.
[00:25:51] Speaker B: Yes, exactly right. Exactly right.
[00:25:52] Speaker A: He's not risen till Sunday.
[00:25:53] Speaker B: Yeah, that's right. And so it draws you into the Lent, and then when you have the resurrection, it really means something.
[00:25:59] Speaker A: Reminder of the mystery.
[00:25:59] Speaker B: Yeah. And so the other day, our youngest daughter said to me, dad, that song, it just came on spotify as painting, and it just on the playlist just came on. It was buried in there somewhere, and there was an alleluia and the whole chorus was alleluia over and over again. And she says, dad, that song shouldn't be on. Awesome.
[00:26:15] Speaker A: I trained her.
[00:26:17] Speaker B: So so there's an ambiance to it.
I guess some people out there listening would have their own music, whether it's some really cool worship or themed stuff, or we might actually have a little playing of Carmen's song The Champion about the devil and Jesus having a boxing match.
[00:26:36] Speaker A: It's sort of presented maybe the Messiah instead.
[00:26:38] Speaker B: Yeah.
But both excellent songs. Yeah. So things like that, they're kind of cool. She then goes on to talk about Holy Thursday, so that's just before Good Friday, there is a tradition that exists within Christianity of visiting seven churches to pray and meditate on what happened to Jesus between the Last Supper and the Crowning with thorns. The seven churches visitation would be overly ambitious for my children to attempt after the Thursday night service. But we may visit churches for prayer during the day on Thursday or the morning of Good Friday. I thought you could actually even do that.
You could do a virtual tour of the churches or something like that, or just do it at home.
[00:27:24] Speaker A: I think there were a few of those popped up during Lockdown, actually. You could possibly look on YouTube.
[00:27:27] Speaker B: Yeah. So that's quite cool. That's a cool little thing to do. Then on Good Friday, she says praying the Stations of the Cross. That's a traditional prayer. I think Catholics, Anglicans, and I think some other denominations, obviously, the Orthodox as well.
The stations are quite for those who haven't prayed them before, just Google them. It's really straightforward. Don't worry, there's no freaky deaky Catholic stuff. And I don't think there isn't. No.
It's a very ecumenical prayer.
[00:27:57] Speaker A: Different versions out there as well.
[00:27:58] Speaker B: Yeah. And what they do is don't get the. Weird wacky ones. There's some sort of politicized ones. The stations of the cross for people who love whales stranded in the Antarctication. That's a terrible something wrong with that whale. But dolphin but just get the vanilla ones that just get straight to the point. And what they do is each station is a different part of Christ's journey to the cross and the Passion. It's a very beautiful prayer. So traditionally you pray that on Good Friday, and then she says, Holy Saturday, the day of awful silence while Christ is in the tomb. It can be difficult to keep quiet if, like me, you live in a full and noisy house on this day. Easter hasn't yet arrived, but we are inching closer. It can be helpful to do quiet activities with young children, like completing coloring pages, which you can find online, eh? Or dyeing eggs. I thought that was kind of cool because we tend to buy eggs, but.
[00:28:57] Speaker A: Eggs are so expensive.
[00:28:58] Speaker B: Well, that might not be dying eggs, but we buy chocolate eggs. But maybe I don't know about you. Do you remember as a kid that there were I remember several Easters, actually, we didn't get chocolate eggs. We had those.
Marzipan. Not marzipan.
[00:29:15] Speaker A: I know what you mean.
[00:29:17] Speaker B: You don't like those.
[00:29:18] Speaker A: Do you hate marzipan?
[00:29:19] Speaker B: But I remember there's a lot of love went into that. And then there was also I remember the Easter egg hunt back when eggs were not the new gold standard underpinning world economy.
[00:29:29] Speaker A: Shouldn't she just give the kids actual egg retirement?
[00:29:34] Speaker B: But you'd hard boil the eggs and then you would paint that. We used to do it in school. I remember that. Maybe our skill was a bit different, but we were cool back in the day. But yes. So she's dying eggs for the next day.
This has got a good point. She says we try to fast from most screen time activities, but our family tradition is to watch The Gospel of John, which I think I looked this morning. It's actually available on YouTube. The whole thing for free if we need to fill some extra time in a way that prepares our family for the Easter celebrations. Note for parents, there is a crucifixion scene, but it's not as graphic as The Passion of the Christ.
[00:30:09] Speaker A: You'd hope not.
[00:30:11] Speaker B: That's a movie I want to watch. But you're like, no, our kids are not ready yet.
[00:30:14] Speaker A: Maybe the older ones, maybe just Lucy.
[00:30:17] Speaker B: Yeah, it's a shame.
[00:30:19] Speaker A: Older. The twins have sensibilities sensitivities that I'd.
[00:30:22] Speaker B: Be like, yeah, I think our son would be fine with it because he watches war films with me.
But it's a shame. It's such a good meditation and it would be so great to be able to share that. I can't wait till we can share it with the kids. Man, I hope they haven't all left home by the time the younger ones are ready for it. That would be quite good. There's also other things like I was thinking in our house it would be cool to maybe watch something like Jesus of Nazareth. You could start yeah, but you try and then well, yeah, we had a bit of a roadblock last year, but what we might do is find the part where the passion starts and sort of watch that part of it. Or there's things like the movie King of Kings. There's the greatest story ever told. Even things like the Robe or Ben Hur which reference the events of the crucifixion I mean, I know we're stretching it a little bit here, but prince of Egypt, babe. Prince of Egypt in there. The kids watch that almost every actually that is a valid I will allow.
[00:31:21] Speaker A: That you better because that's pretty much.
[00:31:22] Speaker B: All they'll let you that actually is a good choice. The Prince of Egypt is a beautiful because it's beautiful. Typology of Christ.
Yeah, gosh that's good. Good. Excellent suggestion. That's why we keep you on this podcast to bring the excellent suggestions when husband is suggesting that we watch Terminator three.
[00:31:40] Speaker A: Especially on Good Friday when our kids have sat through probably almost 2 hours of church.
[00:31:45] Speaker B: Yeah, wiped out. Yeah, that's true actually. But there's something about that. There's something special about it's. Not your usual Netflix. Let's watch an episode of Frogs fighting the Chickens or Jurassic Park 27 or whatever it is. There's something about it drawing aside a and then lastly, Easter Sunday once Easter service is over, whether you go like some actually the Catholic tradition has a Saturday night vigil once it gets dark and we light the fire and go nuts to celebrate the resurrection or whether it's Sunday morning, family celebrations begin. The grief of the tomb has passed and the joy of the resurrection has arrived. Whether it's baskets of chocolate egg hunts or as in my household, the ancient and very traditional funfetti is it funfetti cake in the shape of a bunny's face?
[00:32:32] Speaker A: Like sprinkles?
[00:32:33] Speaker B: There is no more joyous day in the Christian year. So what is funfetti cake?
[00:32:37] Speaker A: I think it's like sprinkles.
[00:32:38] Speaker B: Like literally just sprinkles. Sprinkles hundreds and thousands on a cake. Like just a part of decorate the cake. Yeah, I was going to say but just the way you're saying it made it sound like maybe it was just a pot of sprinkles in the shape of a bunny. No, it's called funfetti cake. Oh, that makes sense. That makes a lot of sense.
[00:32:56] Speaker A: I'm not American.
[00:32:57] Speaker B: Yeah, but they're quite cool little ideas and I think it's good to do stuff like that, eh? Really immerse yourself in the Easter experience.
It's funny because I did a completely different podcast for our church actually the other day and on that podcast we were talking about how sort of the Western tradition is actually round the wrong way. We tend to think of Christmas as the big one and Easter gets secondary status. But Easter is actually the most important one. And in the history of Christianity, it is the big feast. Christmas is not it's important, but it's actually not as important as Easter, and we've sort of lost sight of that. And so when it comes to Christmas, we got trees up, we got all sorts of stuff going on.
[00:33:39] Speaker A: We build up for weeks.
[00:33:40] Speaker B: Lilies there's music, there's the whole shebang. And here we are with Easter. We sort of just like steamroll into it, steamroll out of it. It really should be a bit more lived, I think.
[00:33:52] Speaker A: That's right, yeah. It's important, I think that kids pick up on little things. Like Eleanor. This morning, I was asking her what she wanted in her lunchbox for her sandwich, and she doesn't tend to stray too far most days at the moment, but it's usually a marmite sandwich, and it's either love heart shaped or butterfly shaped. And she said, I'm going to have butterflies because they're a sign of new life.
[00:34:13] Speaker B: Wow.
[00:34:13] Speaker A: Oh, yeah. But I think that's potentially her teacher doing a really good job.
[00:34:16] Speaker B: Yeah. That's cool. Props to the resurrection. That's awesome. That's beautiful. Because they are they are traditional Christian symbol of resurrection. They go into their little cocoon. Cocoon? Is it their little yes, cocoon. I thought there's another word for it. Maybe I'm getting that wrong. But yeah. And then they come out and they're a beautiful butterfly. They have been resurrected to glory.
That music means it's time for our moment of goodness, truth or beauty in our scripture reflection for the month. Katie, as always, me ladies before gentlemen, what is your moment of goodness? Truth?
[00:35:06] Speaker A: I'm having a little giggle because I noticed that yours is something you read. All spoiler alert.
[00:35:12] Speaker B: Don't go stealing my it's often something.
[00:35:14] Speaker A: You'Ve read and mine's often hey, I've got this friend and I'm going to maintain tradition.
So mine is a friend of ours, close friend of ours has recently been diagnosed with breast cancer and she's actually having her second chemo treatment today. So if you have a moment, say a prayer for her that goes well.
She recently shaved off all her hair and I went with her for that event, which was actually such a privilege and an honor to be there with her and to see how she coped with that. And the moment isn't so much a moment as just an observation of her witness.
So far throughout this experience, she's been so positive, she's been so grateful to God.
She praises the Lord every chance she gets.
[00:36:03] Speaker B: It's beautiful. Very beautiful.
[00:36:05] Speaker A: And it's beautiful to see the way her husband's caring for her. I'm sure behind closed doors there's been moments of disability that we haven't seen.
But, yeah, it's just really beautiful to see that witness of her hope in the Lord.
[00:36:17] Speaker B: And her husband shaved his head, too. Solidarity.
[00:36:19] Speaker A: Yeah. I got to take some cool Mohawk photos.
[00:36:21] Speaker B: She looks really good with a shaved head.
He looks a bit like a supervillain.
[00:36:25] Speaker A: He's going to go back, the Mohawk, he tells me.
[00:36:27] Speaker B: Yeah, I think he did. But they both look good, actually, with that Mohawk little thing. Yeah, that's quite cool. And that's a little pro tip, actually, I realized when you went with her, was that get photographs, like the hairdresser took part of it off and a little cool Mohawk thing. They got a photograph. They had a photograph before and then a photograph afterwards. So it was all sort of documented. I thought that was it. I thought it just really spoke to me and thought, that's actually an important thing to do, isn't it? If you go through something like that. Okay, well, I'll keep my tradition up then. And I will read and I will read to your reflection that I read the other day. Not the whole thing, just a little bit of it I thought was actually quite cool related to Easter for me this month. It really sort of has been on my heart a lot. And it's from Fulton Sheen, who's a famous American Catholic bishop. Archbishop Fulton J. Sheen. And he really was the guy who I think he was one of the first to actually pioneer the use of modern media, television and radio to promote the gospel. And he became like a household name in America because of it. But he wasn't just what you might think of as a I don't know, when you say TV preacher yeah. Televangelist. It doesn't what's his name?
No, not Billy Graham. But some of those negative examples, the stereotypes you don't a tele evangelist know, hawking snake oil and asking for money. That's what you tend to think of. He's definitely not that. And he was quite intelligent and very clever and witty and articulate. And there's this beautiful reflection he has about Mary Magdalene and Jesus and coming out of the tomb and being addressed by Jesus. But it was just the end bit that really struck me. And he said this only purity he's talking about the two Marys that are pivotal in these key points of Jesus'life. So only purity and sinlessness could welcome the all Holy Son of God into the world, which is why Mary met him at the door of Earth in the city of Bethlehem. I thought that's a beautiful little statement. And then he says this this is the bit that really struck me. But only a repentant sinner who had herself risen from the grave of sin to the newness of life in God could fittingly understand the triumph over sin to the honor of womanhood. It must forever be said a woman was closest to the cross on Good Friday and first at the tomb on Easter morning. And I think it's really beautiful like that the whole fittingness of this woman who has been forgiven from her sin, who is there first to meet Christ as he overcomes sin and death by walking out of that grave and the fact that it is like the men actually, apart from John, the men bail on Jesus. And one of them, the chief guy, Peter, actually three times says, I don't know this guy. I'll say whatever you want me to say to confirm. I don't know this guy. Like, it's really bad, but the woman stay faithful. It's really quite beautiful, isn't it?
[00:39:21] Speaker A: Is it in John's gospel where there's that whole bit about like, there's the little race after Mary says, I've seen Jesus.
[00:39:27] Speaker B: The foot race.
[00:39:28] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:39:28] Speaker B: That's in Mark, isn't it?
[00:39:30] Speaker A: It's this disciple that got there first, or whoever there's like the little kind.
[00:39:33] Speaker B: Of that's in Mark. I'm pretty sure that's in Mark.
[00:39:35] Speaker A: Always makes me laugh every like, yes, you got there first.
[00:39:39] Speaker B: Or maybe you're right. Maybe it is in John gosh.
[00:39:42] Speaker A: Everybody should listen very closely on Sunday.
[00:39:44] Speaker B: You do your research and come back to us and tell us how wrong we were. But, yeah, you're right. Who won the foot race? I got there first. Suckers. Funny, eh? That's the blokes.
That's the blokes. The women are faithful. They're caring, they're doing the burial spices, and the blokes are like, I'm getting there first. Loser, get out of my way.
[00:40:01] Speaker A: And I'm going to write it down.
[00:40:03] Speaker B: Everyone's going to know for all of human history that I was here first. Someone write it down. Put that down in the book now. Yeah. So funny.
That's typical. That is the difference between men and women. What is a woman? Well, she's there with Jesus the whole way. Beautiful, beautiful stuff. Okay, so scripture reflection. What is your scripture, Katie?
[00:40:23] Speaker A: Mine is from Psalm 46. Yes, I'll just read a couple of little bits. It's just really stuck with me. I actually read it to my friend on the way to have her head shaved, and it was the Psalm for the day, and it just seemed very appropriate. God is our refuge and strength and ever present help in trouble. Therefore we will not fear though the earth give way and the mountains fall into the heart of the sea, though its waters roar and foam and the mountains quake with their surging. And then the end of it is, come and see what the Lord has done, the desolations he has brought on the earth. He makes wars cease to the ends of the earth. He breaks the bow and shatters the spear. He burns the shields with fire. He says, be still and know that I am God. I will be exalted among the nations. I will be exalted in the earth. The Lord Almighty is with us. The God of Jacob is our fortress.
[00:41:12] Speaker B: Beautiful. As you were saying that, I was reminded actually you often hear this on Good Friday from that famous passage from the Psalms that Jesus quotes on the cross. Eli eli lama sabaktani, which is, My God, my God, why have you forsaken me? Psalm 21, and a lot of people hear them. They go, oh my gosh, Jesus is crying in desperation. But it's actually a particular type of Jewish prayer. And it reminded me that psalm you already reminded me of it where they start with this very powerful, overwhelming cry of lamentation, my God, my God, why have you forsaken me? But if you read all the way through the end of that psalm, by the end of the psalm, the psalmist is saying and professing this profound trust and hope that God will save and God will deliver. It's a particular type of Jewish prayer where they start with the lamentation, and they always end with a bold declaration of trust in God. And that's what Jesus is doing. So he's crying out with the lamentation that also everyone who heard him say that would have known that's also a prayer of hope and trust.
You really hear that psalm that you were sharing there absolutely. This bold certainty of who God is and no matter the challenge or the struggle, he's there. Yeah, that's beautiful. For me, I've chosen to read the entire book of Isaiah katie's looking here at the screen, because I copy and pasted this, but yeah, it's one of the readings you hear on Good Friday. If you're at a Good Friday liturgy or service, you'll often hear this from Isaiah 53, verses three to eleven. And I thought I'd read it because it's just yeah, I mean, it speaks for itself. He was despised and rejected by others, a man of suffering and acquainted with infirmity, and as one from whom others hide their faces. He was despised, and we held him of no account. Surely he has borne our infirmities and carried our diseases, yet we accounted him stricken, struck down by God and afflicted. But he was wounded for our transgressions, crushed for our iniquities. Upon him was the punishment that made us whole. And by his bruises we are healed. All we, like sheep, have gone astray. We have all turned to our own way, and the Lord has laid on him the iniquity of us all. He was oppressed and he was afflicted, yet he did not open his mouth like a lamb that is led to the slaughter, and like a sheep that before its sharers is silent. So he did not open his mouth. By a perversion of justice he was taken away. Who could have imagined his future? For he was cut off from the land of the living, stricken for the transgression of my people. They made his grave with the wicked and his tomb with the rich. Although he had done no violence and there was no deceit in his mouth, yet it was the will of the Lord to crush him with pain. When you make his life an offering for sin, he shall see his offspring and shall prolong his days. Through him the will of the Lord shall prosper out of his anguish he shall see light, he shall find satisfaction through his knowledge. The righteous one, my servant, shall make many righteous, and he shall bear their iniquities.
That's very powerful.
It's just timeless.
Still today. It's the power of the profound, life giving, life saving power of Christ's suffering and death and resurrection and the awful pathos and suffering of that what was born. And you hear mean, poetic doesn't do it justice. I don't know about you, but for me you think, oh, it's very poetic, but it's more than that. It's transformatively real in a different kind of way of speaking, if that makes sense.
[00:44:46] Speaker A: I think they call it prophecy.
[00:44:47] Speaker B: Yeah.
Thank you for ruining that beautiful little moment of emotional sort of intimacy that I was trying to sort of go for there with the listeners. But yeah, it is. There's something about it that way that's yeah, man, powerful, powerful stuff.
All righty, so it's time to jump into our listener questions to take this episode on home. And we've got three questions today. The first one is this how do you address marital intimacy issues when one spouse has had previous sexual relationships and struggles to fully embrace Christian teaching on sexuality? Katie, did you have any thoughts about this?
[00:45:37] Speaker A: You have thoughts about that first?
[00:45:38] Speaker B: Well, yeah, when I read the question, my first thought was, I guess the context matters.
Is it intimacy issues in a sense that is this a communication issue? Is the question, I guess, is it just we haven't talked about this, so we need to talk about this and we're coming at it from different perspectives and that's creating challenges. Or is it that there's expectations around intimacy that are completely different, out of balance?
Because I think kind of sounds like.
[00:46:09] Speaker A: The second one to me a little bit.
[00:46:10] Speaker B: Yeah, that does, doesn't it? And that would make a big difference. Well, I think anything like this, you've got to talk, you've got to communicate. And what happens, the tendency, I think, is not to talk, because it is easier just to sort of clam up and go your own ways and distract yourself and hope the problem solves itself. And that's both men and women, I think. And it often takes a bit of commitment to sit down, make the time, good conversations. Yeah. And to have that say, look, you're pretty good at this, actually.
[00:46:39] Speaker A: Am I? Because I don't know, I think before.
[00:46:41] Speaker B: I got married, no, we don't have these big issues. But what I mean with is you'll often say, look, I'm feeling right now a little bit like I'm not being seen, or I'm feeling like I'm sometimes.
[00:46:51] Speaker A: I'm good at it, and sometimes I'm.
[00:46:52] Speaker B: Like, yeah, often it does come after that.
Look, I find out one way or another.
[00:46:59] Speaker A: You sure do.
I think a lot of people go into marriage thinking, oh, we're getting married, we love each other. It won't be difficult to have those conversations because we'll be married and we'll be together all the time and we'll just have so many opportunities for all these amazing conversations. And that's true in one sense, but it still takes work in another way, especially when it's something that's uncomfortable to bring up or that's become a source of hurt or injury in the marriage.
And particularly if you are I don't want to say unequally yoked, but in this particular situation, if one partner is not, what did it say?
[00:47:41] Speaker B: So they've had previous sexual relationships, so that implies the other spouse hasn't. And they struggle to fully embrace the Christian teaching.
[00:47:48] Speaker A: So if one spouse is struggling with that teaching and it's not an easy teaching yeah, I'm not sure what way they're struggling specifically.
[00:47:56] Speaker B: Well, maybe they don't they think, oh, this doesn't make sense to me. Yeah, I think you've probably in that case, just as you're speaking, I was thinking maybe you might also want to bring a pastor or a priest or someone wise to mentor into that situation to help them out.
[00:48:12] Speaker A: There are some great books that you can read around that. Maybe it's a gently, gently approach as opposed to this is what I believe in. You have to get on board or you have to accept it and you can't.
[00:48:21] Speaker B: Yeah.
The challenge, I guess, is if the person is saying, well, I don't get this Christian teaching on sexuality at all and I just think you should never deny yourself. And the other person is going, no, I believe in sexual virtue in the marriage, and it's just not a free for all. Do you know what I mean? That's where I think where your trickiness would come. But I think one of the things that would definitely be worth doing is we often have a tendency, I think, to think, well, I've got to save my spouse, but we don't do that anyway because it's not our job to save anyone.
[00:48:54] Speaker A: It's our job to bring them to Jesus.
[00:48:55] Speaker B: Yeah, but our tendency to think, well, I've got to solve the problem, but maybe the way it's not actually maybe our job is to actually just say to the person, well, would you consider coming along with me to talk with our pastor or our minister or some.
[00:49:10] Speaker A: Really great couple that you get along with?
[00:49:12] Speaker B: Yeah couple who know this stuff and have got the ability or worked through this issue, they might have their own.
[00:49:16] Speaker A: Story, might be a great place for a mentorship relationship with another couple because everybody's got definitely got something they can relate to and helpful things to add if they're living a good christian life and a good marriage.
[00:49:28] Speaker B: I would say start early. Like, if you're aware that's an issue, get onto it straight away. Because if you don't, what I think will happen is it will develop and it will start to cement. And then as it cements, there's another deeper layer that's more difficult to deal with and as it cements, this is that old saying that if you defer a conflict, a small conflict, you will still have to have that conflict, but it'll be much larger. So it's better to actually just get onto it straight away. And I think you've got to be honest, and particularly probably if you're the Christian, so you're the believing spouse. You are going to know that certain ideas that secular culture has about sexuality are not just anathema, they're not something you'll ever do, but they would actually make you feel very uncomfortable if someone was wanting to bring those into your marital bed. And so you got to be honest about that.
If you've made a vow to someone, I will love you and faithfully fully give myself to you for life, and then you sort of turn around and try and say, well, sure, I made that vow, but I want you to actually now live out the way I want you to live it out. I think you've got a conflict the.
[00:50:37] Speaker A: Whole because you love me. If you love me, yes. And I think we need to be clear, you don't have to do anything that makes you uncomfortable.
[00:50:46] Speaker B: No.
[00:50:46] Speaker A: You have the right to say no, even if you're married.
[00:50:50] Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely.
[00:50:51] Speaker A: That's really important because I think in a lot of Christian relationships that line can get really blurred and people think because they're married, it's their duty to say yes to whatever the other person wants because it makes them happy. But if you have a line that you don't want to go past, you don't have to go past it.
[00:51:08] Speaker B: Yeah, you have given yourself bodily to the other, but so have they. But it's in love.
Your body has not been surrendered as a piece of property for that other person to use. And I think that's really, really important to understand. Absolutely. And that's where the limit is. So if someone says, well, I'm demanding that you made this vow to me, so you must do this thing, you are now treating that person as a piece of property and that person has every right, I believe, absolutely in the eyes of God, to say, hey, hold on a minute. No, that's not the vow we made, actually. That's not the vow we made. So yeah, a really, really good point. But you got to talk and you got to get onto it early, I think. And this is, again, another reminder, I think we might have talked about this in the last episode before you even get married. Be aware and be prepared and that might even be a deal breaker.
[00:51:52] Speaker A: And be honest, because this is big.
[00:51:53] Speaker B: Stuff, it might well be the deal breaker. To me, it's becoming more and more apparent that community matters so much and that the communal beliefs that you hold go into the community of your marriage. And if you're not in sync there, it can be real trouble. So it's something if you're not married to, really, to consider.
Second question is this is how do you deal with arguments in the family home? And I guess there's tears of arguments in a family home, isn't there? There's lots of tears that follow the.
[00:52:23] Speaker A: Family argument as well.
[00:52:24] Speaker B: Yeah, but how do you deal with arguments?
[00:52:26] Speaker A: Hash it out, hash it out, hash it out. Don't go any room in sulk, which I agree with to some extent, but I think there's an argument for everybody handles those emotions in those moments differently. And it's okay if you're a person that needs to just have some time to take that time, especially if you know that if you don't take that time, I'm putting my hand up, you will blow up. You'll say something you regret, you'll do something you regret. And that's never ideal, especially with children in the home.
[00:52:54] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:52:56] Speaker A: So that's sort of more arguments between.
[00:52:58] Speaker B: Us, maybe, which well, but also, our kids would play this out, too. They would probably it's interesting seeing our kids, how they manifest these different approaches.
[00:53:05] Speaker A: Less likely to let kids go and sulk, depending on who it is and why they need to have a little moment.
[00:53:10] Speaker B: Yeah, I agree with that.
[00:53:11] Speaker A: The old teenage huffy puffy stomp off doesn't fly too well with me.
[00:53:15] Speaker B: No, we had one last night, actually, didn't we? And I had to sort of call someone back and say, hey, look, let's have a chat. Um, I think it's an interesting one because you're right, you don't want a volcano that's out of control, so it's better to actually have someone who goes away, just simmers away a bit and then comes back when the pressure is down.
[00:53:33] Speaker A: And if you have a person in your house that's like that, which I am, and a couple of our kids are, I think it's important to respect that, especially as they get older. To respect that. Hey, you just need ten minutes to cool off and then the conversation will actually be a lot more sensible and.
[00:53:45] Speaker B: Productive solutions can be found.
[00:53:48] Speaker A: I had this the other night with Lucy, actually, when she came out and said, when I'm 16, I'm going to get my nose pierced. And my first instinct was, absolutely not.
[00:53:56] Speaker B: Not if I take your nose off here and now.
[00:53:59] Speaker A: Young whole stupid argument about she used to pay bored if she did that when I went away, and she went away and I had a little thunk, and I was like, actually, don't have a good reason for her not to do that. It was just a knee jerk reaction.
[00:54:10] Speaker B: That turned into, did you have a chat yet about it afterwards?
[00:54:13] Speaker A: I came back downstairs, she came out of the lounge, she said, I'm sorry, and I said, Look, I actually don't have a good reason.
These are the circumstances around which that could happen. We can have a conversation about it, but we both just. Needed to take ten minutes, take five, cool our jets. As Brendan would say. Cool your jets.
[00:54:32] Speaker B: Cool down, gang. Just relax. Chill out.
[00:54:34] Speaker A: Like the 1917 jesus Christ.
[00:54:36] Speaker B: Yeah, that's it, man.
[00:54:38] Speaker A: Chill out.
[00:54:38] Speaker B: Come on, dudes, relax.
[00:54:41] Speaker A: Yeah, we just needed that time, and then we could both have that conversation.
[00:54:45] Speaker B: Yeah, that's good. I think, too. A big part of it here is possibly as well, is well, there's a couple of things for me. One is we had a situation last night where we had one of our children had a bit of an explosion, but then you were also a bit stressed. And so I'm like the husband. I'm like, what do I do? Because the tendency, I think, as blokes is we want to run away and we want to go, oh, no, run away.
[00:55:09] Speaker A: A lot of blokes run away by going on their phones, I've noticed.
[00:55:11] Speaker B: Yeah, my wife is fighting you're in the room.
[00:55:14] Speaker A: Does not mean you're present if you exactly.
[00:55:17] Speaker B: So, yeah, whoever you are out there, you husbands who I know, I've seen you. Oh, me. Okay.
A lot of husbands you're like, oh, my wife's fighting with the kids again, or My kids are fighting with my wife again, or I don't want to put my head in the middle of this tornado, this firestorm. But you've actually got to, I think, get invested, and it can be a bit challenging. And it's hard because you've got that one thing of the united front. Parents, I think, should try and maintain a united front, but then if one parent is being unreasonable, I actually think that gets called into question. But that's really hard, the whole very.
[00:55:55] Speaker A: Hard to manage, because there's often the feeling that I often feel that you are undermining me if you step in, and vice versa. But I'm not allowed to do it to you.
[00:56:03] Speaker B: No, but no, you do do it to me. So that's what I'm saying. And I'll often realize, yeah, that she was right.
[00:56:11] Speaker A: It's hard to find that you've got to sort out the argument and then have a conversation later about, well, what's the actual right way for us to.
[00:56:21] Speaker B: Well, I think also yeah, true. But I think also, too, I think there's a danger that if we're not careful, we end up showing our kids this idea that you just side with someone even when they're actually not right. Do you know what I mean?
It is a heck of a challenge. This is where I think one of the key things you got to do is if you've got kids, is you've got to teach them how to argue well.
So we often sort of think, oh, yeah, our spouses will get this sorted out, and our kids will sort of be bystanders. But you've actually got to, I think, help them to learn how to navigate a disagreement well, because that's where the problems are.
[00:56:56] Speaker A: That's right. Because there's no life without arguments. You can't just say, oh, it's such a happy home. We never have arguments because that's not true.
[00:57:03] Speaker B: That is baloney.
[00:57:04] Speaker A: We basically have fight club in the bedrooms.
[00:57:08] Speaker B: Well, so how do we deal with it? Well, between Katie and I, we have to have an agreement, a gentlemanly lady, ladies and gentlemen agreement, a gentlewomanly agreement and a gentlemanly agreement.
If we have to walk away and come out later, we will. That we'll be honest with each other, that we will communicate. So if something needs to be talked about, we'll have that conversation at some point that we never disparage each other in front of the children, that we're a united front should be happening. We don't ever, like, let's say it was something minor. And what I mean by minor is Mum says, yeah, okay, son, you can go fishing today. And Dad's like, no, he can't go fishing because he didn't clean his room. So to me, yeah, it is minor. I think it's not a situation of either spouse being unreasonable towards the children. It's just a disagreement about how to handle the situation. So we have this united front thing, and then we talk about it quietly and then come back with a so you have those sort of rules, I think, and then you also have to have a set of rules for your kids.
What is the limit? One of the things I do is whenever I'm around and there's an argument happening in my vicinity, I will generally speaking, unless I'm the Cowardly Lion and I can hear that, it's just a silly like, my two daughters this morning, they had an argument about something to do with who hung what in the wardrobe.
[00:58:35] Speaker A: Happens every day.
[00:58:36] Speaker B: And I'm like, this is going to be over in two minutes. It's silly. They've blown up over nothing. You leave it. And sure enough, it was and they did actually talk to that. I heard them within about 30 seconds to a minute, they were suddenly talking rationally to each other. Other times, though, what I'll do is, if it's a bit more than that, it's a bit more intense, I will step in. I make a deliberate decision to step in, and I just adjudicate. And I think you've got to sometimes just say, okay, well, what's going on? And you know me, I've got this hard and fast role where I'm like, no, you don't get to speak. You tell me in your words, this is something that's blown up. You tell me exactly what happened according to you and the other person. No, because the other person will go, no, that's not what it was. I'm the innocent party. They're guilty. And you're like, no, you get to say, in just a second, you get to have your say, and then we switch it over, and the other person has to stay silent. And then that gives you, as a parent, enough info, usually, to gauge and to lay down a bit of disciplinary outcomes.
[00:59:33] Speaker A: Sometimes it's a matter of divide and conquer a little bit like send them to separate rooms to have a little bit of time and think about what happened and what you could have done differently.
[00:59:42] Speaker B: That's a good one.
[00:59:42] Speaker A: Could you have handled yeah, exactly.
[00:59:44] Speaker B: That is a question we ask a lot in our home. Here's the thing. There's got to be some hard and fast absolutes, though. I will never, ever tolerate anyone who is raising their voice and abusing my wife. That is never to happen. It includes my kids. I will never, ever tolerate violence. I will never tolerate spiteful, mean, uncharitable venom being spat at people. Like, even if you got a genuine argument, if it's turning into name calling, no, I'll never tolerate just an unaccountable, uncontrolled screaming match. That ain't happening in Ass.
[01:00:19] Speaker A: We've got a seven year old who likes to have a screaming match all by herself.
[01:00:21] Speaker B: Yes, it's hard because she is a.
[01:00:24] Speaker A: Bit of a she's a firebrand.
[01:00:26] Speaker B: She is. She's a firebrand and I'm a mad Irishman. And so we have to go head to head sometimes, like, no, into your room, please.
And you just got to bear with it. But, yeah, there's certain non negotiables and a part of it's training people, and then I think it's just navigating through the argument. So it's communicating, teaching people how to argue well.
And then also, I think being referee when you need to.
[01:00:54] Speaker A: And I think to add on at the end, we always have a say sorry.
Apologize if you've said something hurtful. Apologize if you've done something hurtful.
Offer a forgiveness afterwards.
[01:01:06] Speaker B: Yeah. The other party must forgive. Right. That's a big deal in our house. If someone says sorry and it's genuine, that Christian call to forgiveness, they get more teenagers. It's so funny.
The sorry is like, sorry, and the forgiveness is like, I forgive you.
[01:01:22] Speaker A: There's something important about saying those words. Yes, I know it can seem a little bit kind of formulaic, but no important about that.
[01:01:28] Speaker B: Yeah. Because some people try and argue, oh, it's just tried.
[01:01:30] Speaker A: If they don't mean it, them to say it.
[01:01:31] Speaker B: But here's what I believe. I think that's wrong. I actually think what happens is that the more you say something, the more you start to believe it, and it changes your heart and your mind. Your attitude shifts as you speak it out loud. I really do believe that. So it actually often is the catalyst to bring you into forgiveness. A genuine attitude. It's not either or. I think it's both. End. Last question for the episode. How do you navigate I've got this wrong too, actually, when I wrote it down. How do you navigate disciple roles in the family home? But it's discipline roles. I had to ask.
[01:02:02] Speaker A: Could be either.
[01:02:03] Speaker B: Yeah. How do you navigate discipline roles in the home?
[01:02:06] Speaker A: It kind of feeds into the previous question, a bit, doesn't it?
[01:02:08] Speaker B: Yeah, it's a very typical thing, I think the masculine strength, the feminine strengths, they are brought to bear in a very, I think, wholesome and complementary kind of way. I am the enforcer. I am the long hand of the law. Sometimes that means the enforcer is not the sheriff isn't in town when he should be maybe sitting on the couch watching his rugby or something, you know what I mean? He's not called upon. He has to be called upon to dial one one. And sometimes I know for you, you sort of say you feel like you're the constant. Like they don't listen. Why aren't they listening to me? Or you're the disciplined parent. I'm the fun parent.
[01:02:43] Speaker A: I did feel like that the other week. Yeah, because you were all like, we're going to go out fishing at nighttime and going to do this. And I was like, Tidy up your bedroom.
[01:02:50] Speaker B: Yeah, poor old mum.
Basically, you describe what your role is. Mine is really as the enforcer. It's the long hand of the law.
This is the nuclear option.
[01:03:02] Speaker A: Well, I think you're also quite a good backup. That if Mum says, hey, you actually need to do this, you do homework before you can have your screen time. That's a role in our house, right? Like, if you've done all your homework, then you get to have game time on Thursday afternoon.
If we got to Thursday afternoon and homework hadn't been done, and I would say, you haven't done your homework, this is your time allowance to do it, then you can have your screen time. That means you get less screen time. This is the choice you have made and usually that's enough. You've made this choice. You could have done it Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, and you chose not to. So now you have to use your game time, do your homework.
[01:03:37] Speaker B: Good. Cool.
[01:03:37] Speaker A: Usually that's enough. Lay down. Like, make a boundary, stick to it.
[01:03:43] Speaker B: Lay down the law.
[01:03:44] Speaker A: But if something kicks off, that's usually where backup enforcer gets called in. And usually all you have to say is exactly what I said.
Voice I'm not getting out of this.
[01:03:57] Speaker B: I know you find that frustrating. A, it's because you'll tell them ten times and dad comes in once, he's like, clean up your room right now. And they're like, okay, dad, I was always going to do it. I'll do it as fast I can. Problem.
[01:04:08] Speaker A: I also talk about how when you were traveling a lot and so I had to be enforcer and yeah, whatever.
[01:04:14] Speaker B: My role is, kids are a bit young.
[01:04:16] Speaker A: Boundary setter. I always talk about the Charlie Brown. Voice after about five days of Mum being in charge, literally, I'm sure that's what they hear.
They don't even hear me. And I would notice myself dropping a register, tidy up your room, so that they're like, oh, man. Voice a couple of times I've got your brother who sounds quite a lot like you to deal with Nathaniel when you've been away, because I think he.
[01:04:43] Speaker B: Just yeah, the Ghost of Christmas Past is coming for yeah, yeah, that's a good point. I think the key thing is you've got to communicate, too, again about what the boundaries and expectations are if you're talking about discipline roles, because each family will be different and you'll have different ways of handling it, I would imagine.
I think the key thing is probably having a conversation about when do you like, if one party you feel has maybe overstepped the bounds, and how do you have that conversation together without it actually turning into an absolute family meltdown?
So you've seen me doing something, think, oh, you've been a bit hard on the kids, or vice versa.
[01:05:22] Speaker A: There's a conversation for not in front of yeah, exactly.
[01:05:24] Speaker B: So you got to navigate those kinds of things. I think really what you've got to have some agreement onto is what the interplay is. We generally have a genuine sort of give and take. So some moments you'll be the front line, other moments I'll be the front line and you're backing up and vice versa. What you probably want to avoid, though, is dad or Mum, just as this sort of distant observer and the other parent struggling away.
[01:05:51] Speaker A: You're both on it. Yeah, that's right.
[01:05:53] Speaker B: Yeah.
[01:05:53] Speaker A: You can't leave one to do the whole job. And I think also not to interfere with each other.
[01:05:58] Speaker B: No.
[01:05:58] Speaker A: Like, if I'm in there setting the boundaries, you don't need to jump in.
[01:06:03] Speaker B: No.
[01:06:03] Speaker A: Unless the boundaries aren't being respected. Yeah.
I think that's confusing for the kids as well. There's no need to go from what do you call it? Defcon whatever you have to. Right.
[01:06:15] Speaker B: Yeah.
[01:06:16] Speaker A: Do not open the briefcase.
[01:06:17] Speaker B: Yeah, that's right. Yeah. That's so true. I think that's a bloke problem.
[01:06:22] Speaker A: Escalate a wee bit.
[01:06:23] Speaker B: Blokes will walk into the room totally oblivious. They'll hear Mum and she clearly, Mum's struggling a bit, and they'll go, what the heck is going on here? And Mum has literally just started and.
[01:06:31] Speaker A: She'S not, I'm all right.
[01:06:33] Speaker B: And then next minute, Son is like, oh, Mummy, mummy saving.
That's true. I think awareness, situational awareness. Knowing what's going on.
[01:06:46] Speaker A: That's where that is helpful.
[01:06:48] Speaker B: Yeah.
[01:06:48] Speaker A: The whole phone, many phones.
[01:06:49] Speaker B: Yeah. And stuff like that, I think, too, it's a matter of sort of figuring out what does it look like? If you need to escalate, maybe, as well.
How does that work? Do you call on your husband or do you say, right, I'm going to talk to dad when you get home, sort of figuring out some of those things, what that means. And there's moments where probably the two of you have to sit down and we've done this both together with the child because it's Mum and dad, it's so serious and it's after the fact and the two of you are sitting there, it's not just dad coming in as the sort of the long arm of the law. It's Mum and dad together, sitting down with you. Because this is a family bond, so it's not just discipline. Now, the family bond has been broken, if you like we often say in our home, as Malones, we don't do that. That's not what we do. As Malones. It's not our way. And so there's a bond, if you like, a profound culture of our family. And when Mum and dad are together.
[01:07:46] Speaker A: With you, gosh, I think that's an important thing as well with family culture. If you're in a marriage where you do come from different cultures, you obviously got your different backgrounds. And definitely we came from quite different disciplinarian style backgrounds, but even culture can make that a big difference as well. So I think it's important to actually have those conversations and go, well, this was appropriate in my childhood, but is it appropriate for our children?
[01:08:09] Speaker B: Yeah, great. That's great.
[01:08:10] Speaker A: Important conversations to have.
[01:08:12] Speaker B: Very good point. Again, before you and talking about each.
[01:08:14] Speaker A: Child, our five children are all very different in how they respond to and different kinds of disciplines different. So it's figuring out what works for each child and being consistent with it, which, honestly, is one of the hardest parts in parenting. It really is tiring. You just want to give up.
[01:08:29] Speaker B: Half the time there isn't a one size fits all for your children or for discipline. It just isn't. And be very wary of anyone who see, here's a formula. There are basic rules, but there's not a formula. And I think that's important to recognize. So you're right, each child will be different.
[01:08:43] Speaker A: And each rule is always the only rule, really, is we come back to it again. We talked about before is know the first rule is and sometimes love looks like go to your bedroom and have some time by yourself.
[01:08:57] Speaker B: Truth and goodness say you can't have love without it.
[01:09:00] Speaker A: And my mum said something quite wise to me once when our kids were quite little, and she said, Sometimes Catherine, she calls me Catherine. She's being advisory and serious. Sometimes Catherine, it's absolutely fine for you to put yourself in time out. It's actually really good advice. Sometimes I just need to take myself out of the situation. I'm the one that's escalating it, take myself away, let it diffuse yeah, awesome. And give myself a moment.
[01:09:27] Speaker B: Yeah, that's cool.
[01:09:28] Speaker A: I think knowing yourself is also important.
[01:09:30] Speaker B: Yeah, that's great. Well said. Well, on that note, it's time to wrap up this episode pretty chock full of content.
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[01:10:41] Speaker A: Amen.
[01:10:41] Speaker B: Yeah. Thanks for tuning in, folks. We'll see you next time. Don't forget, live by goodness, truth and beauty, not by lies. And we will see you next time on The Little Flock.
[01:10:49] Speaker A: See you next time.
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[01:11:04] Speaker B: If you enjoyed this show, then please help us to ensure that more of this great content keeps getting made by becoming a patron of the show at Media you.
[01:11:15] Speaker A: Thanks for listening. See you next time on The Little Flock.
