[00:00:06] Speaker A: Hi, my name is Katie Malone, and.
[00:00:08] Speaker B: I'm Brendan the husband.
[00:00:09] Speaker A: And you're listening to the little flock, the podcast that offers practical insights about living a counterculture of goodness, truth, and beauty in a world of increasingly hostile secularism and indifference.
[00:00:19] Speaker B: So if you're looking to learn from two imperfect followers of Christ about how to live like the wheat amongst the Darnell, this is definitely the podcast for you.
Hi, everybody. Welcome along to this month's episode of the Little Flock podcast.
[00:00:37] Speaker A: Hi, everyone.
[00:00:38] Speaker B: Great to be back. Isn't it, Katie?
[00:00:40] Speaker A: Absolutely. Isn't it gone fast?
[00:00:42] Speaker B: It has. She says it's absolutely certain. Yes, it is good to be back. Yes, Brendan, time has sped by. Yep, it seems like only yesteryear. We were talking yesterday. We were talking about yesterday month. There's no yesterday month, is there?
[00:00:55] Speaker A: There should be.
[00:00:56] Speaker B: Maybe there was someone out there who's an english nerd. Tell us, was there a yesterday month, a yesterday week? There's a yesterday year and a yesterday. Maybe there was.
[00:01:05] Speaker A: Google that one up.
[00:01:06] Speaker B: I bet you there was. Anyway, we'll google that, find out for you next month. But it seems like only yesterday we were talking about Lent, and Lent was a couple of days away from starting, and now we're well and truly into it. So we're going to carry on that conversation today. Before we do that, though, just a couple of quick notices. So pull up a chair and please listen. This is not the time to read the parish newsletter or your church bulletin. Often this happens, doesn't it, during notices.
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[00:03:07] Speaker A: Fabulous.
[00:03:08] Speaker B: It's a third of it, isn't it? You get to claim back. Yeah, which is quite. That's not insignificant. My wife is the tax guru in our house.
[00:03:15] Speaker A: Oh, not really. Only in our house. In my very small bubble, she's a.
[00:03:19] Speaker B: Pretty good tax guru, but it all helps. So, yeah, you can do
[email protected]. Nz while you're there, if you want to send us your questions. And we're going to answer a couple of questions, a couple of curly ones, actually. Today the big guns have been drawn, Katie. And so we've got to answer some pretty challenging questions today that have been sent to us very recently. But if you want to send us your questions or topics you'd like us to talk about, we'll consider either or maybe a guest. If you know of some absolute guru, someone who's got something important, someone can help you rearrange how to game the system. Yeah, if you know of someone you'd like us to interview or a topic you'd like us to cover, or you've just got a question that you'd like us to explore, go to the littleflockpodcast.org. That's where you can find all the episodes. And at the top of the page there you'll see there is a link you can click on to leave your questions or go to lifenet.org nz. And there's a banner at the very top of the page. You cannot miss it. And that banner is one that you click on and you can fill in the form and we will get an email immediately telling us of your questions. So, yeah, life is good.
[00:04:23] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:04:24] Speaker B: So here we are, Katie, we started the conversation a couple of days before Lent, and now we are, well, we're on the tail end of it. We have broken the back of this thing.
[00:04:34] Speaker A: Feel like the tail end, to be honest.
[00:04:36] Speaker B: Why not?
[00:04:36] Speaker A: Well, no. One of the girls asked me the other day, how much longer of lent is there? And I was like, six weeks. It's just six weeks. The whole time. Every week is six weeks.
[00:04:43] Speaker B: Stop asking.
[00:04:44] Speaker A: Stop talking about Lent.
[00:04:46] Speaker B: You're making my lent more lenten.
[00:04:49] Speaker A: My lent.
[00:04:51] Speaker B: What a lovely.
[00:04:53] Speaker A: Because I try not to count the weeks.
[00:04:55] Speaker B: Yeah, I'm not a weak counter either, but I have to say I'm a strong counter.
[00:05:03] Speaker A: Are your strengths also your weaknesses?
[00:05:05] Speaker B: Yes. Well, I'll tell you what, folks, this was an absolute disaster. I went to hit the button to do this and I completely missed it and hit another button instead.
[00:05:14] Speaker A: Enjoy.
[00:05:15] Speaker B: Yeah, I might not be a weak counter, but I am terrible at the control panel. So anyway, yeah, I'm not a week counter normally, but I look at my schedule each week and I have a monthly, yearly weekly planner that's right on the wall the whole time. And I count down each week and I look at what's coming up and so you sort of can't help but see, wow, we've really got through a massive amount of lent now. And next week is the last full week. And then we're into what is traditionally known in the christian calendar as Holy week. And the end of Holy Week, it actually ends. The beginning of the end starts, doesn't it? On Holy Thursday night. And the Easter trituum, the Easter commemorations and celebrations begin. So, yeah, it's amazing how far we've come. What's it been like for you? How would you describe it?
[00:06:05] Speaker A: Lenty.
[00:06:06] Speaker B: Yes. That's easy, isn't it? What's Lent been like for you? It's been a period of 40 days. I like to call Lent.
[00:06:12] Speaker A: It hasn't been 40 days yet. Just told you. She's good at accounting, actually.
Do we say good about Lent?
[00:06:20] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:06:20] Speaker A: Fruitful.
[00:06:21] Speaker B: Fruitful.
[00:06:22] Speaker A: Fruitful, yeah.
[00:06:23] Speaker B: In what way? Can you share or not?
[00:06:26] Speaker A: Can I share? I think it's been fruitful in some ways and not in others. And I listened to somebody preaching on my new Spotify premium account.
Lucy hooked me up with family sharing.
[00:06:39] Speaker B: Speak about gaming the system, folks, this is a new thing. Teenagers are getting together in groups, they're forming gangs.
[00:06:45] Speaker A: I got to be one of the youths.
[00:06:47] Speaker B: Spotify gangs. They get together and then they purchase the family discount, which is pretty Spotify.
[00:06:51] Speaker A: So don't tell Spotify my secret. Spotify.
[00:06:54] Speaker B: Well, especially in today's culture, when anything can be a family, we identify playing your game.
[00:07:00] Speaker A: That's very true.
I can't remember what I was saying now. I was listening to someone preach, and he was saying, I can't remember what I was.
[00:07:08] Speaker B: I think about it on Spotify. Was it a fruitful lent? Can you talk about it?
[00:07:12] Speaker A: He was talking about how the fourth Sunday of Lent, which we call Leitare Sunday, which means joy, is kind of a pause and a reset. So you should actually be. Now is the time to be looking back at what you've lived over the last few weeks and looking forward at kind of the last hurdle, last temptations, and kind of seeing where you're up to, like, examining where you've been and where you're going and how are the things you intended to do at the beginning of Lent going?
Are they the things that God wants you to keep going with? Are they too easy? Are they too hard?
Are they serving the purpose of bringing you closer to God in this time before Easter? Because you don't want to get to Easter and just be like, hooray, chocolate. You want to actually get to Easter and have lived through that, the 40 days in the desert and the tridium and actually walk that path with Christ.
[00:08:05] Speaker B: It's funny, one of my conflicts in that regard is feeling a little bit guilty now because we talked about this last time. You talked about how you gave up coffee.
[00:08:12] Speaker A: I gave up sugar in your sugar.
[00:08:14] Speaker B: Sugar in your coffee.
[00:08:15] Speaker A: If I gave up coffee, that would be a sacrifice for other people.
[00:08:17] Speaker B: Yeah, that's right. I do remember that now. And you talked about giving up sugar and how you never went back to it. And I've done a couple of things and I'm like, yeah, I think I should keep going with this. And then I'm like, oh, have I lost the impact of Lent? So you come out of it and you move away from those disciplines, those fasts. But no, it's still a good thing. But it's interesting, sort of. It's a good conundrum, too.
[00:08:39] Speaker A: I think maybe this part of Lent should be less about the giving up and more about the taking up.
[00:08:45] Speaker B: Yeah. Okay, what do you mean by unpack that for us?
[00:08:47] Speaker A: The things that I've given up, while it hasn't been easy, every day to make those sacrifices, has been a good thing for me. And it is something like you say that I can see myself continuing, or I should feel like I should continue because I'm building a good habit.
But I think at this parabolic, you need to be looking at, what are the things I should be taking up more like, I also wanted to work on my prayer life. Have I been doing that? Or have I focused so much on the penance and the sacrifice and the, oh, I'm not eating chocolate. I'm not eating treats that I've lost sight of, the other goods that I.
[00:09:22] Speaker B: Should be eating in, the higher goods that they should serve.
[00:09:25] Speaker A: Because one of my girls said to me yesterday, oh, I forgot that I could even have coffee on Sunday. And she said, oh, I really feel like a coffee today. I'm really fighting it. And I was like, you know what? It wouldn't be the end of the world. There's nothing wrong with having it on a Sunday or having that and making sure you thank the Lord for it, because it's still a good.
[00:09:37] Speaker B: Right.
[00:09:38] Speaker A: It's not an evil that she shouldn't be having.
She said, no, I can do it. Fine. But I said to her, you have to make sure that your focus isn't. I must tick this box every day. I must make the sacrifice, or I fail as a Christian somehow.
[00:09:52] Speaker B: And we talked about that last.
[00:09:53] Speaker A: Not the intention. Yeah. If you are sitting here right now saying, I haven't lost any weight all of Lent, then you're lenting wrong.
[00:10:00] Speaker B: Well, that would be scrupulosity. And Lent is not scrupulosity. It's loving self sacrifice.
[00:10:06] Speaker A: And it's the intention behind the sacrifice.
[00:10:08] Speaker B: Yeah. And it's loving. It should be an act of an extension of a form of physical self giving. It's not right. I must count this. I must do that. You're right. They're ticking that box. That would just be, literally scrupulosity. I think it's important to maintain the disciplines, if you can. I was out for as long as.
[00:10:28] Speaker A: They'Re helping you come closer to Christ.
[00:10:29] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:10:30] Speaker A: If the discipline is getting in the way of that, then you need to examine what the purpose is of it. And recenter, I don't think. Give it up. But I'm saying, like, recenter it.
[00:10:37] Speaker B: I don't think there could be any discipline, like an authentic discipline that would actually drive you away from Christ. I think it could create problems if it's disordered. So it's in excess, usually. And then it's probably no longer a sacrifice. So the moment a sacrifice moves into excess, what does it become? It's become an obsession now. And that's not a good.
[00:10:56] Speaker A: No.
[00:10:59] Speaker B: It's interesting. I had coffee with the boys from church yesterday morning. The lads, we get up early and go to church on a Tuesday morning. We say morning prayer together, and then we head down to the local coffee shop before any other person is even awake, which is pretty impressive in a rural area like ours or semi rural area. They all start flying in about 07:00 a.m. And so we were having coffee and we were just talking about lent and about how sadly for some people, Lent is kind of like it's not treated as a boot camp when it kind of should be like, it's treated like, literally. You go into this period of hardship and then you come out of it and you leave it in the rearview mirror, when really it should be like a boot camp. That says to you, right now, I've gone through the boot camp period. What should come after that is a period of solidifying and building on those spiritual goods in my life and those disciplines so that I don't just then have to wait until next year to actually get my prayer life, my personal giving to the poor and the vulnerable, my self sacrifice, and fasting back in order again. By the Katie's right. You know what she's talking about there with Latari. Sunday just been, if it's not going well, don't panic.
[00:12:13] Speaker A: That's right.
[00:12:14] Speaker B: There's still more time. Like, you might have had the worst lent ever. You might have had the most unlenty lent ever. You've got to this period and you're like, oh, my gosh, what have I done? And assuming it's not because some major crisis is in your life, which would rightly necessitate a different focus, but assuming it's just, you've forgotten, you've made a mess of it. You've set out with the best intentions and haven't got it right. The good news is that there's still lent left. You could really come home strong. I've had that before. I've had lents where it's just like, gosh, I really just didn't pay attention and I haven't given it what I should have. But then one in particular, I made a really big effort with Holy Week, and that really did make a big difference. That was quite pivotal in and of itself. So, yeah, there's still time. We talked about last time we were going to talk about the Stations of the cross, and so we're going to do that today. For those who aren't familiar with them, I thought we'd just start with a little bit of an a don't worry, this is not an exclusively catholic thing. It's not a trick. So the stations of the cross, let me read to you from the most reputable. Katie. Encyclopedia of Britannica. I don't go to Wikipedia anymore. Well, I do sometimes, but I try and actually get backup for Wikipedia as a source. And certainly Britannica is one that I use a lot more now because it's just more reliable. They've actually got researchers who've written just.
[00:13:35] Speaker A: Like the olden days when you'd have it on the shelf. Yeah, like, all right, I need the A to e Britannica.
[00:13:40] Speaker B: Did you have Britannica or funk and wagnels? They were the two different competing. Yeah, funk and wagnells. There was a sales.
Yeah, we had the funk and Wagners. We were porous.
[00:13:48] Speaker A: Literally how I chose my degree. I was like, right, 8th anthropology.
[00:13:51] Speaker B: Did you? That's hilarious. What does the Great Britannica command of us? That's so funny. Just opened it and had a look. Yeah. Okay, so Encyclopedia Britannica, one of the good things I like is because like at the very top it says written and fact checked by the editors of Encyclopedia Britannica and they use actual experts. And that's awesome.
[00:14:10] Speaker A: It's not just fact checkers.
[00:14:12] Speaker B: Yeah. Like Wikipedia is written by anybody who wants to. It's crowdsourcing. So anybody can add. And some of those more political pages are hilarious because there are constant editing walls going on just for political purposes. Okay. Stations of the cross is a series of 14 pictures or carvings portraying the passion of Christ. So Katie, what is the passion? For those who don't know, it's not a Mel Gibson movie. It is, but it's more than that.
[00:14:37] Speaker A: So it's from when Christ was condemned to death till he was placed in the tomb.
[00:14:41] Speaker B: Yeah. So the passion, as in the suffering and the intensity of it, of those awful events that he was subjected to, from his condemnation by Pontius Pilate to his entombment, the series of stations is as follow. And these are in order. Number one, Jesus is condemned to death. That's the first station. Number two is Jesus is made to bear his cross. Number three, Jesus falls the first time. Number four, Jesus meets his mother. Number five, Simon of Cyrene, is made to bear the cross. Number six, Veronica wipes Jesus's face. And that's the whole Veronica's veil tradition where that comes from. And number seven, Jesus falls the second time. Number eight, the woman of Jerusalem weep over Jesus. Number nine, Jesus falls the third time. Number ten, Jesus is stripped of his garments. Number eleven, Jesus is nailed to the cross. Number twelve, Jesus dies on the cross. And there's a bit more reverence at that station when we get to that one, isn't there? Number 13, Jesus is taken down from the cross. And number 14, Jesus is placed in the sepulchre, the tomb. So that's the stations of the cross. That's what they are. And the images, as we read in this description, are usually mounted on the inside walls of a church or chapel, but may also be erected in such places as cemeteries, corridors of hospitals and religious houses, or on mountainsides.
[00:15:53] Speaker A: If you're in Rome, you can go to the.
[00:15:56] Speaker B: Mountainsides is definitely quite a different category of place.
[00:16:00] Speaker A: Very traditional, though. Mountainside.
[00:16:02] Speaker B: You're true.
[00:16:03] Speaker A: Think of all the mountains.
[00:16:04] Speaker B: Yeah, that's right. And the climbing of the mount, the crucifixion mount.
[00:16:08] Speaker A: Name some others.
[00:16:09] Speaker B: No, I mean, most importantly, it's Calvary, right? That's right, the Mount of Calvary. But even in your home you could have them. I don't know of too many people who do, but you could.
[00:16:17] Speaker A: You can buy some quite cool mini.
[00:16:20] Speaker B: The well, they take up a lot of room.
[00:16:22] Speaker A: I mean like little ones where the kids get to. There's like a hole for each station. Yeah, kids stick a little cross in.
[00:16:28] Speaker B: Yes, that's right. But what I mean is if you were going to put up full stations around a room, it would be quite a lot of room to do that.
The devotional exercise of visiting and praying in front of each of the 14 stations and meditating on the passion of Christ stems from the practice of early christian pilgrims who visited the scenes of the events in Jerusalem and walked the traditional route from the supposed location of Pilate's house to Calvary. Tradition holds that Mary, the mother of Jesus, set up stone markers at her home outside Jerusalem to prayerfully retrace the steps of her son's passion. But the origin of the devotion in its present form is not clear. Obviously, that would have been hindered quite badly when the muslim invasion happened to the Holy Land, and it really did. There's a whole other history around that. The number of stations originally observed in Jerusalem was considerably smaller than 14. In the early 16th century, ways of the cross were established in Europe, and the tradition of 14 stations probably derived from the best known of them at Levoon in 15 five. The Franciscans long popularized, that's St. Francis of Assisi popularized the practice. And in the 18th century, they bowed to western christian devotional feeling and provided 14 stations in Jerusalem. The traditional stations have been recently supplemented with the via luchas, the way of light in which the meditations focus on the resurrected Christ. So, yeah, basically they're a big deal. And traditionally they're like Anglicans, Catholics, Lutherans and others do pray the station. So this isn't just a sneaky little catholic trap we're laying here. They are interdenominational every Friday. Lent. It's a tradition within those like Anglicans, Catholics and Lutherans and others might pray them a bit more sporadically. But especially important on Good Friday. Right?
[00:18:07] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:18:07] Speaker B: So we sort of. Generally you'd make some sort of pilgrimage to pray them or you would go to your local church, I mean, not go to Jerusalem, or you'd participate in them in public or maybe even pray them at home. Right. Especially on Good Friday. We've been doing it every Friday in our family home with the kids. And it's been awesome, eh?
[00:18:23] Speaker A: Yeah, it's been really good.
[00:18:25] Speaker B: There might also be a public procession via Dolorosa.
[00:18:29] Speaker A: Via Dolorosa.
[00:18:29] Speaker B: Sorry, Avia Dolorosa.
[00:18:32] Speaker A: It means the way of sorrow.
[00:18:34] Speaker B: Yes. Or known as sometimes the way of the cross. And you also have public stations that are often. They are walked. You have actors portraying Christ and the various players in the passion. And on Good Friday, like I know, in Auckland Central, every good Friday, the catholic cathedral does public stations of the cross. They have singing, they stop for the prayers. You follow along in procession. Fun fact. Michael Sheen, the actor, he has been in a few things. Probably a lot of people would know him for Frost versus Nixon. Maybe if you are familiar with Tron legacy, he's in that, but I think he's still doing this. But every year, his local English Anglican parish, they have a passion play on Good Friday and he plays Jesus every year. Well, he was. I don't know if he's still doing, but, you know. So, yeah, it actually has quite a proud tradition. There are, back in the day, not so much now because they're all a bunch of heathens, but back in the day, a lot more actors who would have had faith. It was actually quite a thing to be involved in public passion plays and things like that on Good Friday. They really had a good manner about them because they were serious. It wasn't just like your kids drama class at the nativity time. It was quite a substantial thing.
[00:19:50] Speaker A: Isn't there that town in Germany that has passion plays? Obergammar oba something.
[00:19:55] Speaker B: Yes. And there are some places that do things that are. Yes. Questionable. Like there's a place in. Was it Mexico, where they actually nailed someone. And I'm like, dudes, stop it. Just stop it. I think what happens sometimes there is you get an authentically good christian devotion, and you often have a local paganism that sneaks in the back door and says, well, when we were pagans, we used to hurt each other or inflict pain upon each other. So maybe we should just insert that into our Christianity now. We'll nail ourselves to a cross. Yeah, it's just. Yeah. I'm not convinced that, my friends, is a sacrifice too far, but these are wholesome things. These are good things, and it's a very visceral reminder of things.
[00:20:43] Speaker A: Right, that's right. Yeah.
[00:20:45] Speaker B: We were talking about actually the other day, and we've been talking about this a little bit over the month, whether or not our kids are maybe ready for the passion of the Christ movie.
[00:20:54] Speaker A: I think we have that conversation every.
[00:20:56] Speaker B: Year because that's kind of like a way of the cross. It is a very faithful participation in, and it unpacks theology, and it's also quite brutal. So that's why we have the conversation about our kids. But you can find things like Jesus of Nazareth online and find the part of that miniseries where they have the events of the passion. You could watch that and discuss it and prayerfully watch.
Yeah, it's been good. I found it really fruitful.
[00:21:22] Speaker A: Yes, it's been a good. And it's achievable because it's just once a week, and the kids know what we're doing on Friday nights in lent. And obviously, we'll probably go to our church on Good Friday.
[00:21:32] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:21:34] Speaker A: There's something I really appreciate is having that structure of Easter weekend. It's technically Easter weekend. It's holy weekend ish.
But, yeah, the end of Holy week, just having that actual structure, which I think. Is that a nice segue?
[00:21:49] Speaker B: Yeah, we're going to talk about that in a second. One thing I will say just before we finish with, though, is that the Stations of the cross is a form of devotion. It doesn't have an objective structure to it. There's a basic structure, but what that means is that even if you're someone who maybe is protestant or evangelical, and you think, hey, I'd quite like to do that on Good Friday, and let's do that with our family. What you could do is you could just go to the Britannica article. I think it's actually got pictures of all of the stations. It's certainly got some of them. But you could easily Google and find all of the stations as images. You could print them out or just have them on a screen. And all you need to do is you have a pause. You say a little prayer at each one, have a pause and reflect prayerfully. You could read a scripture, relevant scripture, and then move on to the next one. You could actually shape your own form of it. It's not like that has to be done a particular way.
[00:22:39] Speaker A: That's right. In fact, every year, I think in Rome, the pope writes slightly different prayers, or other cardinals write different reflections for the different parts.
[00:22:48] Speaker B: It's a beautiful thing. And for kids, too. Very accessible. Very, very accessible thing to do.
In fact, I know some young people in our local church, their family, during COVID when we were locked down, and we put on a virtual stations of the cross, and different people participated and contributed.
[00:23:07] Speaker A: Different. Each station.
[00:23:08] Speaker B: Yeah, different stations. Everyone had a different station. They contributed. And one family, holy guacamole, they got the iPhone out, and one of the sons was Jesus, and they made him up, and they had a perfect costume, and they had the makeup on his chest and the blood, and it would look pretty full on. And the daughters were around weeping the woman of Jerusalem. It was really quite impressive. And they filmed it. They even put this beautiful, reflective, sad music in the background. It was pretty impressive. So, yeah, it's a great thing for families to sort of get into, but, yeah, you're right. Segue. Let's get on that segue.
[00:23:43] Speaker A: You were like, no, we're going back.
[00:23:44] Speaker B: Yeah, I'm terrible, aren't I? You're a good accountant, and I'm terrible with budgeting for anything, let alone time. The Easter Triduum and sometimes called the sacred Triduum or the Paschal Triduum, really probably should be called the Pascal Triduum, because Pascal, as in Pascal, as in, if you're eastern, you'd talk about Pascal rather than Paschal, but it's. As in the Paschal, the Passover.
This is our new Passover. As Christians, Easter is our new Passover. And so the Easter triduum, Katie, when does it start?
[00:24:18] Speaker A: Holy Thursday.
[00:24:19] Speaker B: Yep. So, holy Thursday.
[00:24:20] Speaker A: The Thursday of Holy week. The week before Easter Sunday.
[00:24:24] Speaker B: Yes, it's the Thursday before Easter Sunday.
[00:24:26] Speaker A: I mean, I was getting a little bit off on one of my rants a couple of weeks ago, and I was getting really annoyed at all these people that kept calling, Good Friday, Easter Friday. Good Friday is not Easter Friday. Easter Friday is the Friday after Good Friday.
[00:24:38] Speaker B: Yeah, that's right. So Good Friday is its own thing. And, yeah, Easter doesn't start until the Sunday. So we've had 40 days of fasting, and then you have 50 days of celebration and feasting. So we do more feasting and why wouldn't we? Very good thing. Very wholesome thing to do. So it starts on Holy Thursday, and if you are anglican or catholic or Lutheran, maybe some other denominations I've missed off that list, you will gather together for a commemoration of what's known as the Lord's Supper. And it's a liturgy or a mass where the readings are about the last Supper. They focus on things like the footwashing. Often there will be like, I know, Anglicans and Catholics and some Lutherans will do a footwashing ceremony where Christ washes the feet of his disciples and things like that. And then you go into a period of like. In Catholicism, anyway, we have what's called stripping of the altars, and the tabernacle is empty. The altars are stripped clear, and any religious images are covered with purple cloth to symbolize Christ going into the tomb. It's quite a stark.
[00:25:43] Speaker A: Some people do that in their homes from passion Sunday or Palm Sunday.
[00:25:48] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:25:48] Speaker A: Cover their religious images for the week.
[00:25:50] Speaker B: Yeah. And it's quite a stark reminder. Wow.
We don't believe Christ is actually going back into the tomb, but it's a reminder of what he did. And it really, for me, I find that really brings out, like, it's a very small thing, but for me, it's like, imagine what it would have been like to have lived through Christ being in the tomb, not remembering it, but being there. That would have been truly difficult. There's something quite profound about that. And then, of course, the next day is what?
[00:26:16] Speaker A: Good Friday.
[00:26:16] Speaker B: And on Good Friday again, Anglicans, Catholics, Lutherans and some others gather together. And Good Friday is what? It's not a celebration, it's a commemoration. And we commemorate the passion and crucifixion, in particular of Christ. It's about the cross.
There's a lot of talk in those liturgies about the wood of the cross, and some important unpacking of scripture is found there. Like, if you think about crosses and trees and wood, they are central to our salvation story. There is the tree of Adam, which ushered sin into the world. And then Christ, the new Adam, enters onto a new tree, the cross, and saves the world. There's the wood of the ark, which saves Noah and his family. The wood of the cross saves us through Christ on the cross. It's quite beautiful. Right? And so also on Good Friday, we do the hot cross bunnies. We'll talk about that in a second.
We are going to get to that because we did promise people we'd done patterns.
[00:27:19] Speaker A: I always have ethical debates with myself about hot cross buns on Good Friday.
[00:27:23] Speaker B: Yeah, I'm not so fazed by that. And then, of course, we go into Easter Saturday, sometimes called like the grand silence by some people, because the tradition is of that silence of Christ in the tomb and Mary and some of the other disciples like John, who would have been. Remained faithful and hadn't run off in fear, who held on to the faith while Christ is in the tomb. Gosh, that's a pretty profound thing. And then it kicks off when?
[00:27:50] Speaker A: Easter Saturday night.
[00:27:51] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:27:52] Speaker A: Holy Saturday.
[00:27:52] Speaker B: Holy Saturday. Or maybe Easter Sunday for you. Some people you do either or. Right. But Easter Saturday night's a pretty big deal.
[00:27:59] Speaker A: Yeah. The vigil for Easter Saturday night. So the vigil of Easter Sunday is called the Mother of all vigils.
[00:28:06] Speaker B: Yeah, the mother of all.
[00:28:08] Speaker A: I know.
[00:28:10] Speaker B: Thank you, George Bush. And, yeah, it is a big deal. Like, we start outside. Catholics do this. I think some Lutherans do, and I know some Anglicans, like, we have the Easter fire that's lit outside. You start outside the church, there's a big fire. Well, not a big fire, hopefully burn.
[00:28:26] Speaker A: The place depends on your priest.
[00:28:29] Speaker B: Yeah, there's a brazier or something like that. Usually there's a fire cooking away and it's to symbolize the light of Christ. And you go into the church and there's a whole ton of scriptural readings. Like, I've been doing a bit of prep for our eight readings. Yeah, it can be more. So there's options, but, like, we're going to have, for example, three readings from the Old Testament.
Each one is responded to with a psalm. Then you have the psalm itself and then a reading from the New Testament and then the gospel. It's a pretty packed night. It unpacks the full plan of God's salvation and is remembered. And then it's about halfway. Half time, I want to say halftime. That's a bit belittling, isn't it? But about halfway through, the lights kick on because you're in darkness with candles and all of a sudden the lights kick on. It's a really powerful reminder of the light of Christ rising from the tomb. And then it's all on. It is all on. It's traditional in Catholicism to have people who enter the church to get baptized at Easter and things like that. So, yeah, it's a really beautiful time. And then it just carries on 50 days. Well, there's an octave. First eight days of specifically targeted feasting. I don't know what that means.
[00:29:40] Speaker A: Extra special feasting.
[00:29:42] Speaker B: You must feast. You are being targeted for feasting.
But 50 days and right up until Pentecost. So really quite a beautiful thing. And the key thing, I think, to remember all of this is that Easter is. And the Easter mysteries, and in particular, the resurrection of Christ. This is the most important day of the christian liturgical calendar.
[00:30:02] Speaker A: It's a central mystery of our faith. Right?
[00:30:04] Speaker B: Yeah. It's the saving.
[00:30:05] Speaker A: People often go for Christmas, and I like Christmas much as the next person, but Easter is.
[00:30:11] Speaker B: It's the big Kahuna. And it's funny, that shift in our house, that's happened. And in my life, I think that's happened because it was. It was very much.
[00:30:19] Speaker A: Christmas was the big one because you got stuff, right? Yeah.
[00:30:22] Speaker B: And you're a little kid and you want. I like stuff. But in actual fact, it's really important to make the shift to Easter. And so Easter, we should make a feast day of at least Easter Sunday. But we do more than that. But we should, like, at the minimum.
[00:30:35] Speaker A: I think, by comparison to lent, we have the pudding and the nice food.
[00:30:42] Speaker B: Wow. And I've got a special bottle of whiskey that I've been saving. And even the children are allowed once a year to have a little wee, tiny little port or something. Maybe once or twice a year. But it's a big deal. And it's like, your parents will come over. My mum. Maybe we try and get the family over things like that and make an actual celebration of it. This is something different. And our kids know this is not just a Sunday lunch. It's not just like another alternative, cheaper version of Christmas. It's actually a really big deal. So, yeah, make a feast day of it, folks. Really do. We did promise to talk about the meaning of hot cross buns, so we'll do that. Before we get into the question time, Katie, we've got some powerhouse questions to get to. But the meaning of hot cross buns. Do you remember this, Ryan?
[00:31:28] Speaker A: Sing that song well.
[00:31:29] Speaker B: Hot cross buns. Hot cross buns. One a penny, two a penny. That's half penny, obviously. Hot cross buns. If you have no daughters, give them to your sons. Give them to your sons. Not a complex rhyme, not deep literature, is it? If you haven't got any daughters, have you thought of giving them to your sons?
Never thought of that. Good idea, Jeffrey. Okay. One herpenny, two herpenny, hot cross buns. And there are whole lot more verses. We're not even going to. Do you remember that song?
[00:31:58] Speaker A: I remember that verse. I didn't know there were more.
[00:32:00] Speaker B: There's heaps more. It's hilarious how many there are. And they just get more and more. Cockney as you banana, that is. What's that comedian's name? Bill Bailey.
[00:32:12] Speaker A: Bill Bailey.
[00:32:13] Speaker B: Look up Cockney rhyming slam with Bill Bailey. It's quite funny. Have a banana. Okay, so, yeah. Do you remember that I used to sing that in primary school. I went to a state school and we would sing that.
[00:32:24] Speaker A: Well, it's probably what, as religious as it got?
[00:32:26] Speaker B: Well, yeah, but they actually, like you'd probably wouldn't. That would be a hate crime now in some state schools, I'd imagine.
[00:32:33] Speaker A: Because you're calling the buns hot and cross.
[00:32:35] Speaker B: Well, you've mentioned the cross. You've made allusions to Easter. It's not Ramadan, it's not Dawali. We don't do Easter. So. Yeah, it's kind of funny actually, but yeah, we used to, I remember and it was crazy. I remember as a kid singing that and it wasn't in our home too naf for home. We had like hymns to sing, but yeah. So the meaning of the hot cross buns, Katie, what have we got going on on a hot cross bun?
[00:32:57] Speaker A: Oh, you know, this is all you, sweetheart, because I've never really thought this.
[00:33:00] Speaker B: Through that strong, haven't you?
[00:33:02] Speaker A: I'm just busy making the hot cross.
[00:33:06] Speaker B: Uh oh, here we go. I feel the pain.
Well, don't burn them. No, we want to eat them before they get burnt. You make a pretty good hot cross bun.
[00:33:15] Speaker A: Thank you.
[00:33:16] Speaker B: I try and I think that's something that our daughters are starting to pick up as well. Katie's excellence in the baking and cooking.
[00:33:25] Speaker A: It's quite a juggle because I get the dough on before holy Thursday liturgy and then get up, you do the whole hog.
[00:33:32] Speaker B: Right, good Friday, the whole dough thing.
[00:33:33] Speaker A: Well, because we try not to do snacking on Good Friday. So then we have to have the hot cross buns for breakfast. So that means I have to get up.
[00:33:41] Speaker B: Well, I don't have mine at breakfast.
[00:33:43] Speaker A: No, well, you don't, but you're different.
[00:33:45] Speaker B: You're an odball.
[00:33:46] Speaker A: Yeah. Come on, we have to get up and bake them before the children.
[00:33:52] Speaker B: Yeah, that's true.
But you do put a lot of care into them and they really.
I don't reckon. Well, that's not true is I was going to say you can't beat a homemade hot cross bun. But if the person making them is terrible, then.
[00:34:04] Speaker A: Well, that is true. If they're little rocks, they're probably not that pleasant. Lucy told me that yesterday she saw Biscoff hot cross bun.
[00:34:10] Speaker B: I know.
[00:34:11] Speaker A: Like, I'm not sure how I feel about this salted caramel hot.
[00:34:14] Speaker B: I know.
[00:34:15] Speaker A: Maybe we should talk about the actual symbolism. Yeah, because I want to get into any of it.
[00:34:19] Speaker B: No, I want to get into this because this, to me, this is classic. You talk about cultural appropriation and commercialization.
[00:34:26] Speaker A: Like the chocolate chip ones.
[00:34:28] Speaker B: Guys, hot cross buns exist for a reason. They have a particular form, but we just can't handle it. So it's like, no, we've got to jam chocolate in there now. Let's make them out of caramel cream chocolate.
[00:34:39] Speaker A: I'm confused.
[00:34:40] Speaker B: Yeah. I want salted caramel.
I want banafi pie in mine. Honestly, it's getting stupid. But we don't do any that. A chocolate hot cross.
[00:34:54] Speaker A: Buy the kids a good or not one, but I'll buy them at some point when it's not good Friday.
[00:34:58] Speaker B: Yeah. After Good Friday, I'll happily eat a chocolate hot cross bun. I really will. I'll eat it and I'll enjoy chocolate, not cross bun. Oh, I like what you did there. There it is. That was good.
A not cross bun. Must remember that one. But, yeah, there's plenty of time for feasting and stuff like that afterwards. But a hot cross bun is a specific thing, and it's so weird. It's like, we can't just have a thing as a thing. It's like, no, we must distort it and add chocolate and cream, eggs, 20 cups of sugar. So, yeah, we're really good at doing stuff like that. So, first of all, there's the cross.
There is a bit of tradition here. And there is a bit of. It's like interpretive dance.
Some people.
[00:35:40] Speaker A: Not a fan.
[00:35:40] Speaker B: There are traditions where it's like, this is interesting. Some people add extra layers, shall we say, not to the bun, literally, but of tradition and interpretation to the bunnage, shall we say? They've got an extra traditional bun. So, yeah, there's the cross, obviously. And that's where Katie. Just on top of the bun.
[00:35:58] Speaker A: Right where you can see it. You can't miss Maxi in the face with symbolism.
[00:36:01] Speaker B: Do you glaze our hot cross buns? Sometimes, yeah.
[00:36:05] Speaker A: Depends how early.
[00:36:07] Speaker B: What is in the glaze? I've always wondered.
[00:36:09] Speaker A: Sugar and water, is that it?
[00:36:11] Speaker B: Sometimes.
[00:36:11] Speaker A: Bit of citrus.
[00:36:12] Speaker B: It doesn't taste particularly strong.
[00:36:14] Speaker A: No, it's just meant to make them shiny.
[00:36:16] Speaker B: Yeah. So the cross really stands out on the top. So that's the symbol of Christ's cross. There is the spice in the bun. And that symbolizes what?
[00:36:24] Speaker A: Burial spices?
[00:36:25] Speaker B: Yeah. So Christ and his burial spices. And we actually saw that symbolism right back at Christmas in the gifts that the wise men bring on the epiphany to Jesus. One of them is Berryus.
[00:36:34] Speaker A: Cross buns are full of frankincense.
[00:36:37] Speaker B: Yeah. Pepper and frankincense. Enjoy that poisonous bun. Now, sometimes there is orange peel. You talked about citrus in the glaze, but sometimes there apparently is orange peel. And that's supposed to apparently represent the bitterness of the cross because it is a moment of suffering. And. Yeah, orange peel. Is.
Is there anything worse? You could put lemon.
[00:36:55] Speaker A: I like orange peel.
[00:36:56] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:36:56] Speaker A: It's funny, but I don't put it in on account of children.
[00:36:59] Speaker B: Yeah, children. Those children.
[00:37:01] Speaker A: I also don't put the next thing in because children.
[00:37:04] Speaker B: Those pescue kids.
Okay. Yeah. So the raisins. And apparently the raisins, they are buried in the bun. They represent Christ in the.
So there's a lot of them, though. So theologically, bit of a problem there, because there was only one Christ. Not many.
[00:37:19] Speaker A: Eleanor who. Raisins in food is, like, worse than onions in food.
Her raisin and food bar is very, very low. She will eat them by themselves. But if you. The minute you put them in anything, she's like, this has got raisins in it.
[00:37:33] Speaker B: Why must you crucify me, mother? Oh, man.
[00:37:37] Speaker A: So I'm sorry about the raisins. Maybe I just need to put one raisin in the middle of each bun.
[00:37:40] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:37:42] Speaker A: And then it's even more symbolic.
[00:37:43] Speaker B: Winner, winner. Not a chicken dinner with those. Okay. Or not a winner. No chicken dinner. But the raisins represent Christ in the tomb. Apparently, the rising of the dough is symbolic of the resurrection, and the sweetness represents the saving power of the cross. There is a bitterness and there's a sweetness in.
[00:38:01] Speaker A: Yes. Beautiful.
[00:38:01] Speaker B: It is. It's a profound mystery. That's the mystery at the center of our face.
[00:38:04] Speaker A: Paradox of a hot cross bun.
[00:38:06] Speaker B: The paradox, yes. And obviously because it's always tinged with spice, but it's never sickly sweet either. A hot cross bun. That's why chocolate and sugar and all these other things jammed in.
[00:38:16] Speaker A: I mean, I like biscoff, but really, though, it's just a brioche at the end of the day, it's not putting a sweet bread with a bit of biscoff inside it.
[00:38:24] Speaker B: Just wait. I bet you. Someone's done it. There'll be a donut hot cross pie there.
[00:38:28] Speaker A: 100%. There's already one, surely?
[00:38:30] Speaker B: Yeah. I'll bet you if you want to.
[00:38:32] Speaker A: Make something for Easter Sunday, I keep meaning to make these. I never get round to it. Resurrection cookies, have you heard of those?
[00:38:40] Speaker B: No.
[00:38:40] Speaker A: So they're essentially a meringue, and they have nuts and raisins inside.
This is what we had in the olden days for treats. So stick them inside, draw your nuts and raisins, and you put them in the oven on holier Saturday evening. And because it's a meringue, you cook it on a very low, slow temperature.
[00:38:58] Speaker B: That's a long time.
[00:38:59] Speaker A: And so you cook them, you basically put them in like you do with a pav. You put it in, you turn it off and leave it in overnight so they can set. And because it's a meringue, you get a hollow so it looks like a wee tomb.
And when you bite into it, the tomb is empty.
[00:39:13] Speaker B: Wow.
[00:39:13] Speaker A: On Easter Sunday.
[00:39:14] Speaker B: That's a great idea. Thanks for agreeing to make those. This.
[00:39:16] Speaker A: Feel free to make.
I'll get Lucy on it.
[00:39:20] Speaker B: That's quite an awesome. I've never heard of that.
[00:39:22] Speaker A: Quite good symbolism, I think. And it's a very sweet thing. It's a real treat.
[00:39:26] Speaker B: There is a resurrection, but we could.
[00:39:27] Speaker A: Put chocolate chips in that one if you really want.
[00:39:29] Speaker B: You can put whatever you wanted to.
[00:39:29] Speaker A: Right.
[00:39:30] Speaker B: It's an actual resurrection, but it's not a cookie. I'm not sure who's resurrection cookies.
[00:39:34] Speaker A: I'm not sure of as an american thing, but it probably wasn't to start with resurrection. Something else in Europe and then.
[00:39:40] Speaker B: Well, funny should say that. Americans do have a very loose definition of cookie or biscuit.
[00:39:47] Speaker A: Have you got a tangent button?
[00:39:48] Speaker B: I kid you not. No, I kid you not.
[00:39:50] Speaker A: A biscuit is a scone.
[00:39:51] Speaker B: Come on, man.
[00:39:52] Speaker A: We would call a scone.
[00:39:53] Speaker B: I know, but this is a great example. In America, Pringle chips are classified as a biscuit.
Yeah. Go figure that one out. Exactly. I told you. You didn't believe.
[00:40:04] Speaker A: So it's not classified as a cricket.
[00:40:06] Speaker B: No, that's probably classified as a biscuit as well.
[00:40:08] Speaker A: Probably.
[00:40:09] Speaker B: A meringue is a biscuit for these people. What's going on?
[00:40:11] Speaker A: Biscuit is a different thing.
[00:40:13] Speaker B: Yeah, but a cookie, and, like, a meringue is definitely not a cookie, is it?
[00:40:18] Speaker A: Sorry.
Drive. My cookie.
[00:40:21] Speaker B: Cookie. Yeah. That's from an episode of the Office.
My cookie.
[00:40:25] Speaker A: Cookie too many times.
[00:40:26] Speaker B: That's a different religious feast. That was Duali wasn't.
But yeah, you've just been canceled.
But it's not a cookie. But hey, we're going to hopefully have a crack at these resurrection.
[00:40:39] Speaker A: Maybe we get around to that on holy Saturday.
[00:40:42] Speaker B: Send us your comments about what you're putting in your resurrection cookies. That'd be interesting to see. You could put Eminems, could you?
[00:40:48] Speaker A: Or they melt and then maybe you wouldn't get the hollow.
[00:40:53] Speaker B: So fruit, nuts, things that are dry. Well, there must be other things you could put in there.
[00:40:58] Speaker A: But I probably. I mean, I don't know. I read one thing that said it had stuff inside and one that said it didn't.
[00:41:03] Speaker B: So, yeah, there is a meaning to the hot cross bun. They have tradition. There's a reason why they are the way they are. And it's been long standing for hundreds of years.
[00:41:09] Speaker A: Don't muck around with it.
[00:41:09] Speaker B: Do not mess with the hot cross bun. One of the things I've seen.
[00:41:12] Speaker A: Start buying them at Christmas.
[00:41:14] Speaker B: We talked about that last time.
One thing that was interesting is I talked about these layers of tradition, and I saw one site that had referenced the fact that some people talk about the bread being symbolic of communion, the bread of communion. So it's kind of interesting. There's actually layers and layers of symbolism that are in there. It's quite amazing. But they are.
And where Katie gets torn is she's like, should we be having these? They're a bit feasty, yummy treats on. Yeah. I've never seen them as a.
[00:41:43] Speaker A: We try and build a meal.
[00:41:47] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:41:47] Speaker A: I do think it's important that you have them on Good Friday because.
[00:41:50] Speaker B: Yeah. They symbolize that. I normally wait until after we've had the Good Friday liturgy, which is the commemorations at 03:00 p.m. And it doesn't normally finish till five and it's really long.
[00:42:01] Speaker A: So you've made some sacrifices.
[00:42:03] Speaker B: Yeah.
And I would, I guess break the fast with a hot cross bun.
[00:42:07] Speaker A: Do you remember that one year on Good Friday where I had to get up and take Evie to the accident and emergency because she had strep throat?
[00:42:13] Speaker B: Oh, yeah.
[00:42:14] Speaker A: And I was like, I think I didn't eat until after venom because we were there. Because it was good Friday. We were there for like 6 hours. I was like, this is the goodest Friday ever.
[00:42:24] Speaker B: This is the bestest, baddest good Friday.
[00:42:26] Speaker A: Forced to sacrifice.
[00:42:43] Speaker B: Right, Katie, that little musical interlude means it's time for our moment of goodness, truth or beauty, and our scripture reflections. Would you like to go first? Oh, I'm getting the gesture? No, you go first. I'll go first. Then for me it's a simple little prayer. St. Gregory of Nazianus. And get that right, don't.
[00:43:02] Speaker A: Naziansus. We usually call him Gregory the Naziansen.
[00:43:05] Speaker B: Yeah, that's true for eastern and western Christians. But if you got the Nazi bit and not the rest of it, you'd be in real trouble. But a beautiful man of faith, one of the church fathers. Desert fathers, I think, too, wasn't he? And he wrote poetry and beautiful, deep insights. And this is one that I found recently and I just love it. It's written for the end of the day, a reflective sort of looker back. Looker back. That's not a thing.
[00:43:35] Speaker A: Looker back.
What, yesterday? Yeah.
[00:43:45] Speaker B: I'm having a looker back at yesterday moon. But anyway, so a look back on the day that a Christian might have an examination of conscience. It's short. Let me read it to you. Word of God and truth itself. I consecrated this day to you, but I have played you false. Night now falls upon me and finds my own lamp barely bright. This I prayed over and foresaw. But even so, my feet still stumbled and so darkness fell around me. That hater of salvation, o my Christ, rekindle my little lamp and shine on me once more. And if you could end your day every day with that. That's beautiful, eh? I love that little lamp part. Yeah. And it just speaks to what we do. We start the day with the greatest of intentions often, and we get to the end of it. But the mercy of God is great that he's still waiting to rekindle our lamp. So, yeah, that's me. What about you?
[00:44:39] Speaker A: I had to really think hard about this because it's been a bit of a crazy month.
But we were invited to a good friend's daughter's 18th on the weekend and I took all the kids in because Brennan had to go to church.
[00:44:53] Speaker B: It was on a Saturday night, by the way, and I had to take care of the music at a vigil, mass, commitments.
[00:45:00] Speaker A: And what I thought was really beautiful. I mean, this is a very faithful family. They're very beautiful christian people.
The kids are all amazing and they get on well with our kids. But what I love about their kids in particular is that they're such a witness to our children and the way they live their faith and the way that they live out their family life, what we see of it. I'm sure they have their moments, just like all of us.
[00:45:20] Speaker B: We all do.
[00:45:21] Speaker A: But what really struck me was the way that this oldest daughter, first one to turn 18 in the family, was honored by her parents and her friends and members of her church community, and not for what she's accomplished. She's an intelligent girl. She's a beautiful girl. She's at university. I'm sure she's getting amazing grades. But the honoring was for her way of following Christ, her commitment to our Lord. And I thought that was so amazing for our kids to see that. Hey, this is what we're celebrating here. We're acknowledging that that's, out of all the things she's already accomplished in her 18 years and what she'll go on to accomplish for them, that was the most important thing. And I'm happy our kids saw that. I want our kids to know that they could do anything in their lives, and they will do, hopefully, amazing things. But for us, the most important thing is that they follow Jesus, that they are his disciples, that they seek his will.
[00:46:13] Speaker B: Beautiful.
[00:46:14] Speaker A: So I'm hoping that stay friends with those people.
[00:46:18] Speaker B: Yeah, you got to seek that out for your kids, though.
[00:46:21] Speaker A: That's right.
[00:46:21] Speaker B: That's beautiful. That's a beautiful moment.
My scripture reflection for the month comes from Psalm eight, four to five. And there's a little bit of a backstory, but the psalm itself really spoke to me. These two verses. This is a psalm of David, but it's not one of his private psalms. It was one that was actually he wrote for. It talks about him writing this for a particular choir master. So it's written for public liturgical worship use in the temple. And so it's something of note. And it's the whole theme of the psalm, really. God's glory, but also the dignity of the human person. And these two verses in particular. What is man? That you are mindful of him. Mortal man. That you care for him. Like, why should God care for us? That's astounding. It would be like us caring for an ant, even. Probably even worse than that, because we at least have some comparable power to an ant. We have none compared to God. He's all powerful. And then the next verse says this, yet you have made him little less than a God. With glory and honor you have crowned him. That's a powerful statement. So we're not God, but we are little less than a God. And this is a powerful declaration about human dignity and the source of it and the very sacred nature and the importance of human dignity. Now, why this kind of really impacted me in particular was I was doing this. This was morning prayer, and I was actually waiting for an early morning flight to Auckland to go to speak to a group of healthcare workers and lawyers and others about pro life issues, and specifically on the loss of respect for human dignity and the sanctity of life in our culture. And so I'm sitting in the airport, waiting to get on my flight, and so I open up my office, my divine office app, and I find the appropriate morning prayer of the church, and I start praying it. And this was the psalm that day and the focus of the psalm. It tells you at the top of each psalm what the focus is, the glory of God and the dignity of men. And then even more so, when it got to the little scriptural reflection for the day, it was actually one of my guiding verses for the work that I do. When I was about, I think, probably 16 or 17, I memorized this verse. It was Isaiah 117, learn to do right, seek justice, encourage the oppressed, defend the cause of the fatherless, and plead the case of the widow. And in the scripture passage of the day was Isaiah 116, 17, and 18. And it was so beautiful. But that psalm in particular, really just.
It was a reminder for a whole lot of things. Not just the powerful sense of what human dignity actually is, little less than a God, but also the fact that we're not deserving of that. Why should God? This is profound, an act of love on his part. And then even more so is the fact that this dignity that so shapes the west, which we all take for granted. And all the pagans and liberals just think you can have it out of thin air. You can't. And it has its genesis, its origins right back at the very beginnings of our scriptures, and the jewish scriptures as well, of course, in the Old Testament. It's right there.
[00:49:11] Speaker A: Beautiful.
[00:49:12] Speaker B: What about you? What's your scripture?
[00:49:14] Speaker A: Mine is a lot shorter.
[00:49:16] Speaker B: Mine was only two verses, but I had a big long story that mine's only one verse.
[00:49:20] Speaker A: So mine's from the parable of the sower, which I'm sure everybody's familiar with.
[00:49:25] Speaker B: That's s o w e r, not someone sitting at the sewing machine.
[00:49:32] Speaker A: So it's Luke eight, verse 15. Blessed are they who have kept the word with a generous heart and yield a harvest through perseverance. And, I mean, we've all heard that parable multiple times, right? And I think I often focus on everybody wants to be the seed that's on the good ground, but we're all a little bit kind of on half the good ground. I'm one of those. But I think for me, when I read that this time, it just really struck me differently, because it spoke to me of, like, when we receive the seed, when we receive the word, what is the posture of our heart?
Are we feeling generous? Most days when I start out, I'm like, okay, jesus, just help me.
But generous, not that generous.
Are we seeking God's will?
And also the last bit about yielding a harvest through perseverance. So even if you have received the word with the most generous heart of all the hearts, you still have to keep on trying. You have to keep on keeping on. You can't just be like, well, I've received it, and look how generous I am. It's that yielding a harvest takes time, and it takes keeping on going and perseverance and just kind of whittling away at things not you can't do all at once.
[00:50:47] Speaker B: That's the genius, I think the great divine genius of. It's not a gimmick, but the great divine truth of the parable of the sower is obviously there's different types of soil and ground, and some of it takes for a little bit and then doesn't take, really. And some grows deep. And the great divine genius and truth of it is that, in actual fact, we are all those different versions at different times of the ground. Sometimes we're rocky, we don't receive when we should. Sometimes it starts to take root, and then because of our lack of discipline and attentiveness, it doesn't stick. It's quite a profound thing, right? We tend to think, oh, no, I've got the word. I'm all good. I'm definitely not one of those other losers. I'm good. Christian boy.
[00:51:31] Speaker A: Yeah. It's not a one off, right? No, it's a daily return.
[00:51:34] Speaker B: Yeah. And it takes a lifetime. You come back at the end of the harvest and. Yeah, amazing. Well done.
Alrighty, Katie. So that means now it is time to get onto our listener questions. And as I foreshadowed earlier, we have some chunky questions, we have some challenging, some confronting questions. So we'll start with the more recent ones we've received, and then we'll finish on something I thought, something a bit more genteel to the final question to lead us out. So we'll go guns blazing straight into the first one. Why have Christians reduced their family size to just one or two kids? At creation, God commanded Adam and Eve to go forth, increase and multiply. Increase means increase by one person. One per person.
That's two. Multiply means multiply the number. Which would be. Oh, it would be four. Yeah. Anyway, the person's saying there should be more than just you and one other and a kid for each sort of thing. Psalm 127 says, children are a gift from the Lord. They are like arrows in the hands of a warrior. Happy is the man whose quiver is full of them. A quiver full is five. Why are. I think actually, technically, though, a quiver can be more than five.
[00:52:51] Speaker A: I've heard different numbers.
[00:52:53] Speaker B: Yeah.
I don't know if that's entirely correct. But anyway, why are Christians rejecting God's gift of children? Whichever way you look at it, we should be having more than two or three children. Arrows and warriors are fighting tools. I believe these words in the psalm are spiritual warfare, perhaps against the rapid rise of abortions. I don't know whether you understand spiritual warfare. Yep, we definitely do. So thank you to the person who sent us that we definitely do. And it's an important part of our christian life. It should be for all of us. In fact, everything we do is spiritual warfare as Christians because we are fighting against the enemy of goodness and truth in every act of love and goodness that we do in the name of Christ and for neighbor, obviously, as well. I don't know whether you understand spiritual warfare, but when it comes to things like abortion, we need to fight against the powers and principalities. Satan doesn't want us having children because then there is more opportunity for more people to grow up being Christians, living their lives for God, like more souls for heaven. So there's a certain truth at the end there. That's absolutely right. Katie, what do you say? Because actually, probably a bit wrapped up in this.
[00:53:49] Speaker A: Yeah, there's a lot going on there.
I think I would caution against assuming that everybody's just decided to have one or two kids. Yeah, that's a good starting point. I can think of five, more than five couples that would love to have any kids, let alone one or two. I know couples that had two and then couldn't have any more.
And I know couples that, yes. Have chosen for their own reasons to have less than two or three children. And it's not my place to judge that decision making. I'm not in that marriage.
[00:54:22] Speaker B: Right. Yeah. Well, also, if someone actually said, well, we're only having two kids because that's the perfect family size, and they've explicitly said that, you know, I think we can say, hold on a minute, that's not a christian openness to life there. But if, as commonly can be the case and is the case, people might be struggling seriously with illness. We know of one couple, they had two. And then a terminal illness that could have cost someone's life actually resulted in permanent infertility in the marriage. That's not their fault. They wanted more, but they couldn't. I know of others who were in the situation where maybe illness or injury or other things played a part of it. Some people, serious financial issues they're grappling with.
Yeah, there's a host.
[00:55:06] Speaker A: We know of situations where the wife or the husband's open to more children, but the other. Yeah, and that's not an easy situation to, you can't just be like, well, God says we have to. That's not fair on a spouse to put them up against God like that. So I totally am on board here.
As Christians, we should be open to life. That's what the scriptures tell us, that's what our belief tells us.
[00:55:28] Speaker B: And we should have a heroic virtue in the sense that we just have to accept that having kids isn't a comfortable consumer exercise. And the problem is, even within Christianity, we've probably reduced it to that. We've looked for the most comfortable way to have a family on our terms. It's not that it shouldn't be that you don't do foolish, stupid things at the same time, but you do have to accept that it is a challenge and therefore life is meant to be challenge, not comfortability. And you have to lean into that and you have to make yourself open to that. And it's truth. It is absolutely true that in Christianity that probably a lot of us, and even for us, we got five kids. But realistically there's potential. You could argue, I think we enjoy a certain comfort level when you think, well, could we do more? We could adopt. There's all of that going on.
[00:56:15] Speaker A: It's quite difficult these days.
[00:56:17] Speaker B: It is a lot harder these days.
[00:56:18] Speaker A: Yeah, I think also, where was I going with that?
[00:56:25] Speaker B: Well, can I add one thing while you're thinking? Sure. I think it's also important to lead by example too, as well.
It's very easy to say, why aren't other people are doing it? But are we doing it? Are we also contributing to making it easier for those people? I think in some ways it's a bit unfair. Young christian couples who find themselves in christian churches that don't have authentic christian community, that don't promote the fullness of christian anthropology, they're not teaching people about it, they're not supporting authentic marriage and family life, all that kind of stuff, and then they go, well, why aren't they having more kids? And it's like, well, we're putting all the burden on them.
[00:57:01] Speaker A: That's right.
[00:57:02] Speaker B: And we're not doing any of the thing or the things that we should be doing to ensure.
[00:57:06] Speaker A: Also, like, I look around and we know quite a few families that have more than three children. I mean, maybe we're unique. And I'm not even just talking in our Catholic parish, I'm talking families of.
[00:57:18] Speaker B: Some of our protestant friends have got more kids than we have.
[00:57:21] Speaker A: That's right.
[00:57:21] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:57:23] Speaker A: So there's definitely bigger families out there still, which is more unusual in this day and age.
I think people are scared as well, or they've been told, you can't afford it, it'll be too hard. You'll need a bigger car. Number of people who I know have gone to the doctor and said, well, I'm pregnant with number three or number four, and they've gone, but you'll need a bigger car. Like, it's the worst thing in the world. You need a bigger.
[00:57:50] Speaker B: Think. I think too, there's no doubting the fact that this person is right, that the lack of children in the west has caused great harm. Children are not a commodity, they're not an object. But we have harmed ourselves. Our failure to be open to life and to fruitfulness economically, we're in a very precarious position.
[00:58:09] Speaker A: It's about Japan and China, right?
[00:58:11] Speaker B: Yes. Across the world.
[00:58:14] Speaker A: Africa is probably the only place that's not.
[00:58:16] Speaker B: Yeah, we have, in a sense, we have created an artificial barrenness and we have put ourselves in great harm as a result of that. And so this truth is absolutely true. And of course, Satan dislikes any image of God. And the most profound image of God is the human person doesn't want them around, doesn't want them in heaven with God, doesn't want them on earth doing his work and being saints, striving to follow in the imitation, the footsteps of Christ. So there's all of that going on as well. But I think too, the key thing is to remember, I think you've got to realize that sometimes it's not by choice that people are doing this, and I think that's important. So be very careful about passing judgment. Just like I would say to someone who says, oh, well, I'm going to pass judgment on someone who's got twelve kids. They're being irresponsible. No, don't do that either. Yeah, seriously, don't do that. I think there's also a factor here of cultural conditions. You talked about fear, but we've medicalized everything, including pregnancy in a big way. And there's great advantages to that. We can save lives and circumstances we couldn't before. But what it also means now is I think we're a lot more fearful about things like, I know people who have been told, oh, no, you can't have another kid because of this risk or that risk. And it turns out that in actual fact, that that risk wasn't as great as they were told. And it's the fear, it's the lack of control, the sort of absolute medicalization where we try and get pregnancy as perfect as we can. Back in the day, they just didn't do that. They didn't even have an ultrasound. They just got on with.
[00:59:38] Speaker A: They did have higher mortality.
[00:59:40] Speaker B: Sure, sure. And so we've got advantages, but the danger is we've got to be aware of that attitude that can creep in.
[00:59:45] Speaker A: I think you've also got to look at, like, I'm not to bang on about poor Americans and their cookies, but if you, having a baby in America is an expensive business, you need to have really good health insurance. And even then you may end up having to pay more on top of that. So there's a cost there that people are counting as well, which goes back to, it's not just people who don't want to have children. It's actually how is this society established and infrastructure that goes with it.
[01:00:11] Speaker B: And I think the key thing is, just like, we shouldn't be passing speedy judgments upon people and trying to know or assume that we know their motives, I think we should also have a bit of grace for people that they are often the victim of a culture that has lied to them. And so it's easy to fall into like a frog boiling in a pot. And you don't just stand there yelling at the frog, you try and help them out of the pot.
And I think also it's a matter of giving, I think, like a nurturing sort of care to people and a recognition. So leading by example and giving people the support they need to actually hopefully take that next step of another child. And also, I think, recognizing something important that even if you've had, maybe you've had eight or nine kids, don't then sort of look around and say, well, other people should have done what I did, or I'm somehow I'm at a more superior level of openness to God. The moment you do that, you've actually reduced your children to commodities. They're not supposed to be that. Children are supposed to be a fruit of an open receptivity to the love of spouse and the love of God, and the moment they become, like, a bragging tool.
[01:01:18] Speaker A: Yes, that's right.
[01:01:20] Speaker B: There's a disorder there as well. Yeah, look, it's a challenging issue. Lead by example. Pray for people. I would say support people and encourage people. Say to people, hey, look, maybe in your church, I'm serious. Get real practical. Why not have a specific seminar or a gathering or something that focuses on this topic? And you bring young people together in young families and say, what could we do as a church to help you? What are your fears? What could we do to help you to have family and be supported in that, rather than just sort of sitting from the outside, passing judgment? Okay, question number two, Katie. Another one. Another big one. When the scriptures say Christians shall be persecuted, one Timothy or two Timothy 312, I have experienced that persecution multitudes of times. So this is someone who's experienced regular persecution. You wouldn't believe the number of times I've been kicked out of jobs or associations or groups because I stood up for what is right. And no, I was not obnoxious. And that's a fair point. Right? Because there are two types of persecution. There's the persecution that you get is legitimate when you actually are making a good and legitimate and charitable stand for the truth, doing what is right, because it must be done. And then there is the persecution we get for when we do unwise things and we provoke and we don't need to, and we just do things that are hostile and that just actually alienates others and pushes them away and makes them want to push us away. But I am so disappointed in how the church and or small life groups. So this is life groups in a church respond to me. Most of them don't rock any boats, and they don't have any prayer needs, which that's not a healthy sign.
[01:02:51] Speaker A: No.
[01:02:52] Speaker B: Rocking boats is one thing, but not having any prayer needs. I don't know anybody who doesn't have a prayer need. Yeah, everyone should have at least one prayer need in their life all the time. They say to me, if your life was right with God, you wouldn't be facing these challenges. That is definitely a lie. What do we know if you follow in the master's footsteps? What does he say to us?
They persecuted me. Do you expect anything less? You'll be persecuted as well. So, yeah, that's a very unchristian vision of reality. That is so wrong. If there are any lessons to be learned from the book of job, it is that bad things happen to good people, and it is wrong for Job's friends to say he must have sinned to have all this bad stuff happen to him. You're right. So no one should be saying to you, this is happening to you because you're a sinner or you're clearly not right with God. That is a distorted spirituality if people say that to you. C. S. Lewis in his book the Screw tape letters. Great book, Katie, isn't it?
Says that this person says that he helps us to see how the devil works. People who say they are a Christian but never take a stand against evil, the devil leaves them alone. They aren't challenging his kingdom at all. But if Christians take a stand and rock the boats, the devil goes after them with his attacks. That's one thing to be careful of too, because the attacks you're experiencing, they might be the devil or they might be our own imprudence, the fruit of that.
[01:04:09] Speaker A: Or just humans being.
[01:04:10] Speaker B: Yeah. Humans being one. Yeah.
[01:04:12] Speaker A: Not good at humaning.
[01:04:13] Speaker B: Yeah. I would like to find a church who will take these scriptures seriously. And this person lists scriptures. Matthew five, Matthew 544, Matthew 510 to twelve, John 1520, acts 541. When I'm going through challenges, rejoice with me because the devil sees me as a threat to him. I should be treated with honor and respect and to be supported, not as a second class person with something wrong with their walk with the Lord. Look, I'm sorry for this person, whoever you are, who you feel this way and you've had these experiences, that's not a good thing to start with. Katie, how would you.
[01:04:44] Speaker A: Oh my goodness.
[01:04:44] Speaker B: It's a lot in there, right? Yeah, we've already tackled some of it, I think. But what do you think?
[01:04:49] Speaker A: I think we need to be really careful. For starters, I think you touched on this about not seeing the devil hiding behind every tree.
You need to be very discerning about, like you said, what's genuine attack and what's other things.
[01:05:04] Speaker B: And the devil's very cunning too. One of his most effective attacks probably, is to actually play on our own sinful tendencies and lead us into it rather than to be whacking us with a spade or anything like that. He's sort of going, why don't you pick up the spade and whack someone else?
[01:05:20] Speaker A: I think there's quite a few Christians out there as well that don't really want to think about the devil or don't want to kind of acknowledge that he exists and wants the opposite of what?
[01:05:30] Speaker B: God? No, that's a little bit superstitious.
[01:05:33] Speaker A: Who was it? Who said the devil's greatest accomplishment is convincing people that he doesn't exist? Is it Henry Nguyen? No, I have that wrong.
[01:05:41] Speaker B: I think that's a quote that's attributed to lots of people, not least of which is Kaiser Solsay.
[01:05:46] Speaker A: Brendan Malone said this amazing thing.
[01:05:48] Speaker B: No, from Kaiser Solsay. From the film. Was it the usual suspects where know he pretends the innocent guy and he's not the whole time he is the bad guy?
[01:05:59] Speaker A: Oh no, spoiler. People may not.
[01:06:01] Speaker B: Well, I think people, everyone has seen that movie by now, I would hope.
[01:06:05] Speaker A: Everyone. Sorry, tangent. Yeah, yeah. The comment if your life was right with God, you wouldn't be facing these challenges is completely incorrect. It sounds to me like you might need to find someone to talk to about this that you actually trust, like a really good pastor or not necessarily a counselor. Who am I thinking of? Just someone who's got their life sorted with God that you can actually. Well, that talk this through with.
[01:06:27] Speaker B: That was something I was going to ask, actually. Do you have a good mentor? Someone pastorally mentoring you and maybe even in life, do you have someone in that capacity? You'd say, I trust this person as a mentor and I'm willing to listen because one of the things that can happen is we don't intend this. We all have this vulnerability though, where we can actually create problems or provoke and we think we're not provoking, but we can be provoked if we don't realize it. And that's where a good mentor and some good pastoral authority and accountability in our own life can help us to see. And I think maybe these people have just been too harsh with you. They've clearly said some things that are not true. But it could also be possible that maybe there are more prudent ways that you could go about addressing or taking on some of these challenges in your attempt and your striving to be faithful to Christ that don't maybe always result in the same outcome or as many of those negative consequences. And that doesn't mean that you've failed or you're bad. It just means you're like all of us. You're a human person and you've actually got to grow and learn and mature and it's part of life. Right?
I think I would be discerning. Be discerning. You say that there is a repeat pattern of persecution and bad outcomes, and I would always want to make sure that that's not because maybe something I'm doing or saying is actually not contributing to those good outcomes or is maybe making that or creating the problem or making it worse. And only you can really answer that, and only, I think, in conjunction with a good mentor who can help you and guide you.
[01:08:05] Speaker A: I agree.
[01:08:05] Speaker B: I think that's quite key in all of this.
[01:08:08] Speaker A: And you obviously should be treated with honor and respect. Every person should be, regardless of.
[01:08:13] Speaker B: Regardless of what's going on.
Sometimes it's a matter of maybe you don't fit where you are. But I would also say, be careful about running away too quickly, because sometimes the reason we don't fit is not because we don't fit. The other people are out of order. It's maybe because God actually wants to do something in us in that moment. And if you run away, all of that stuff God wants to do comes to a grinding halt until he can find another situation to put you in like that.
I've seen people who are perpetual runners are. This is one of the things St. Benedict was really big on. One of the big changes he introduced to monastic life was that if you became a Benedictine monk in one of his were once you'd made your final vows and said, this is my vocation. I've discerned it. You stayed in that monastery for life, because a lot of people at the time would move from monastery to monastery to monastery. And he's like, God can't do his good work in you if you're not grounded. If you keep running away. There's something not right here, and not only is it a disorder, but you actually can't grow. So I would be wary of that. But, yeah, there's some things that you've been told here that are just not true. And trust in the fact that you are made in God's image. You have profound dignity and worth. But like all of us, we're also flawed, fallible creatures, and we need good mentoring and headship in our lives. Know, we need wisdom to learn prudence, right?
[01:09:33] Speaker A: Yep.
[01:09:34] Speaker B: Okay, third and final one, Katie, and I think this is.
Let's come down for the landing now. Not one of those Auckland landings, like that plane recently that just dropped out of the sky. No, it was coming into Auckland just a couple of days ago, and everyone's like, oh, we dropped out of the sky. And I was like, the more important question is, why is the captain telling people all of my instruments just shut off suddenly? I want to know what's causing that. That's more important. But anyway, how do. This is question number three. How do I discern properly?
[01:10:07] Speaker A: It depends what you're discerning. Right? Like, if you're deciding what to have for dinner.
[01:10:12] Speaker B: Yeah, that's a good point.
[01:10:14] Speaker A: Don't make everything a massive discernment.
Discern whether this is a big discernment or not.
[01:10:21] Speaker B: Well be discerning about your discerning is what you're saying. But that is funny. I read the book about by James McNeese about the Bain family tragic situation and the murders that happened in Dunedin. But he told the whole backstory to the family and the mother. They'd been christian missionaries in Papua New guinea. But clearly things had unraveled for the mother in quite a bad way and probably mental health by the sounds of it too. But he tells the story about her going into a supermarket and holding up a pendulum. To which soup flavor? Which packet of. Yeah. And so this was her tool of discerning and trying to find guidance as to which packet of soup she should choose. So that's an example of someone who is doing a thing and leaving aside the paganism, the lack of goodness and truth there.
[01:11:04] Speaker A: But you also wouldn't.
[01:11:05] Speaker B: That's not what you should do and.
[01:11:06] Speaker A: Be like Holy Spirit should be.
[01:11:07] Speaker B: Yeah. Holy Spirit, guide me. Which flavor of soup should.
[01:11:09] Speaker A: But having said that, foster your relationship with the Holy Spirit to start with to help with your discernment.
[01:11:16] Speaker B: Grace builds on nature though not everything should be spiritualized because everything is in itself spiritualized. Even the natural things you do, they already are a spiritual thing. So you don't need to sit there and go I will pray about the soup.
[01:11:28] Speaker A: Yeah. Should I hang out the laundry today or not?
[01:11:30] Speaker B: Yeah. No, not at all. So you're saying first of all be discerning about what you should be discerning about.
[01:11:35] Speaker A: That's right.
[01:11:35] Speaker B: But then how do you discern properly?
[01:11:38] Speaker A: You need to have a.
Makes me sound really holy. But a good solid prayer life. Yeah, that's key.
[01:11:45] Speaker B: Prayer.
[01:11:46] Speaker A: Absolutely essential relationship with Jesus. And we've already said this, but a mentor, someone you can talk to if you're discerning like a big thing, like am I called to be married to this person I've been dating for two years? Then you need other people you can speak to about that.
And when I say other people, I don't mean going like canvas your friendship group like a married couple. If you're thinking about marriage or a pastor or a priest or a religious sister.
Someone whose wisdom you trust, someone that you have good rapport with.
[01:12:15] Speaker B: Yeah. Great.
[01:12:16] Speaker A: And someone you don't have to keep explaining your whole life story to. You don't want to go looking for lots of people and then having to explain the history of your life.
[01:12:24] Speaker B: Yeah.
[01:12:24] Speaker A: So they can help you make this decision.
[01:12:27] Speaker B: Don't go looking for what would you call pre formulated discernment outcomes, which is I'll go to someone who doesn't really know me or I'll run away from someone who's given me good advice. Yeah, that's a good point. So definitely mentoring is quite key, particularly and at the very least seeking out wise counsel. Particularly. The bigger the decision.
I think it's so much in my life where the mistakes have been made is I haven't even done the basics of bouncing an idea off other people to get that sort of feedback. I think a big part of discernment too, is a couple of things for me is there's what I call pre discernment work that you have to put in. People just assume, well, I'll sort of get to a discernment phase and then I will figure out what to do or someone will tell me or I'll. No, you've got to have built certain foundations, certain habits, so that when you are confronted with the big moments, it's like muscle memory, it's instinct. I've now got to amplify what I've already been doing in smaller ways. So if you've been practicing the virtue of prudence, for example, and temperance and things like that, then when it comes to the bigger decision, you're going to go, right. These things need to start getting amplified here in this process. But if they're missing from your life, you need to learn. And even you'd probably need to understand a bit about discernment before you even get into a big discernment situation. So that's the pre stuff, the foundation stuff that needs to be done. So everyone, even if you're not discerning something big right now, this is where prayer is so important.
[01:13:52] Speaker A: That's right.
[01:13:53] Speaker B: It helps that, definitely. And it gives you. It feeds you with food to make you strong for the moments of the discernment. Desert sort of thing.
I think the other thing is you actually need stillness.
[01:14:04] Speaker A: Yeah. And quiet.
[01:14:05] Speaker B: Yeah. Too many people trying to make decisions on the fly in the midst of busyness. And it's like, what are you doing? And I would say the other thing is, don't give yourself artificial deadlines. Too many people do. This efficiency cult that's in our mind, in the modern mind, it's like, no, I must make the decision and I must make it quickly. And it's like, no, where did that deadline come from?
[01:14:26] Speaker A: Yeah, that's right.
[01:14:27] Speaker B: Why is God telling you to make this really, really quickly? Now, don't be in a perpetual state of discernment ten years later, you're still discerning something you should have decided nine years ago or something. But, yeah. What soup should I have for lunch? Old man very hungry. He's still in the supermarket. Yeah, but there should be. Don't be careful of artificial deadlines. And I would also say, don't be afraid to start taking some positive steps in a direction. I think we have this idea. No, I've got to have it all set in stone first, and then I'll step out. But I think start stepping.
[01:14:59] Speaker A: Sometimes it's just the one step, right?
[01:15:00] Speaker B: Yeah. And then sometimes what will happen? You know the old saying, God closes the door, he opens a window or he closes one door, he opens another.
That's been my way. And he'll tell you, he'll be. No, no, not that way, Brennan, wrong door. Adjust a little bit. And also don't be afraid to go back. So you take a step and you go, actually, I need to turn around and go back. Don't get stuck in what's known as the sunk cost fallacy, which is where you're like, oh, but no, I've already paid ten grand. I've got to keep paying another 100 grand because I've already committed to this decision. No, if you stop now, you'll only lose ten, but if you keep going, you lose 110. So you might have started something, but don't be afraid to stop and say, actual fact, God's with me, I can go back and.
[01:15:44] Speaker A: Yeah, that's right.
[01:15:45] Speaker B: As long as that's what God wants.
[01:15:46] Speaker A: And I think two things I would say, don't make any massive changes.
It's ignatian rule of discernment, isn't it? You don't make any massive changes in a time of distress.
[01:15:57] Speaker B: Yeah.
[01:15:57] Speaker A: So if you're in a. I mean, obviously, if you're stuck in a situation where you have to discern between two things or whatever.
[01:16:02] Speaker B: Yeah, the boat is sinking. Should I get on that lifeboat or that lifeboat?
[01:16:05] Speaker A: Right.
[01:16:05] Speaker B: You got to make a choice.
[01:16:05] Speaker A: You're going to have to make a choice either way. But you shouldn't be making any big changes in your life at a time when you're in a period of really serious cris. Crisis. That's what I was looking for. And secondly. Oh, my brain today.
[01:16:20] Speaker B: Well, I think grief, too, by the way, can be one of those.
[01:16:22] Speaker A: Yes.
[01:16:23] Speaker B: You lose a relationship, a spouse dies and someone else, the typical rebound relationship appears. And this is why so many people fall into that, because it's hard. The heart wants what the heart wants and it's hard. And you're in grief, but it's a state of Cris. You think, I'm thinking straight, it's great. Best thing ever.
[01:16:41] Speaker A: But no, be very careful of that. The other thing I was going to say is there's just an element of trust in God as well. Like Brennan was talking about taking a step out and then going back if you need to. If you step out in what you think is plan A and then you actually turn around and do plan B, God's not going to be like, well, I'm not going to bless you because you didn't do plan A. It's not how he works. So if you are actually trusting and trying to move in the direction you think you've discerned that he wants you to, he doesn't abandon us. That's not how that works.
[01:17:11] Speaker B: Yeah, and you're right. God's always at work. And I think the other thing, too is we just need to have and accept and understand the fact that God often is allowing us lots of multiple potential options.
[01:17:21] Speaker A: That's right.
[01:17:21] Speaker B: Unless it's a choice between good and evil where the only one is to choose good, then God will open up often options that we could go A, B or C, like you're saying, and what is required then is for us to actually just commit, put our hand to the player and not look back. I think in marriage this is important. People have hard times.
[01:17:39] Speaker A: You don't get lots of options, guys.
[01:17:40] Speaker B: Yeah. And you commit and you put your hand to the player and you don't go, oh, hard times have come. Oh, should we have chosen differently or. I regret this. So many people that get in trouble because they're looking for a feel good outcome, I'll make a choice and then I will feel good. No, in actual fact, life's not like that. And you've got to keep committing.
[01:17:58] Speaker A: You just have to choose to feel good.
[01:17:59] Speaker B: Yeah.
[01:18:00] Speaker A: And where you're at. Right?
[01:18:01] Speaker B: Yeah. And that's part of discernment, I guess, is discerning what is noise, the background noise of the human experience and the human struggle versus what is genuine disruption or a lack of peace. That's a red flag. Something's not right.
[01:18:15] Speaker A: Yeah.
[01:18:16] Speaker B: And so often we confuse that very.
[01:18:17] Speaker A: Important, like God's not in the burning bush and the earthquake. He's in the silence and the quiet and the stillness of your heart.
[01:18:25] Speaker B: But you may not get that stillness until you're well into the decision. All of a sudden you're like, wow. I realize now the fullness of the decision I made to ask you to marry me and then getting married and following through with that. I didn't appreciate that at the time. No. And in fact, I was freaked out about it all and say, oh, man, I'm committing to one woman for life. I'm really ready for all those kind of fears. But I look back now and I go, wow, that was the best decision ever. Just, man, if I could go back in time, I'd pat myself on the shoulder and say, mate, lean into this thing ever. But you don't realize at the time. So sometimes you've, I think we've got this idea. As I said, you make a choice and you get the goodies. No, you've got to keep fighting and you got to keep working at it. And if two people, for example, in a marriage can do that, then the fruit comes.
[01:19:10] Speaker A: Yield a harvest through perseverance.
[01:19:12] Speaker B: Very good.
Well, hold on. That feels like I've cheapened what you were saying here. But anyway, we'll go with it. Yeah. So, folks, on that happy note, you've persevered with us. Hopefully you've had a fruitful harvest this episode. We're not going to see you beforehand, but we will be back after Easter. So can we say happy Easter? That feels. Oh, so. No, the boss has said no. I've checked head office, so keep on lenting and St. Patrick's this Sunday. So if you're listening to this before march the 17th, happy St. Patty's. So, yeah, feast of St. Joseph, too, next Tuesday.
[01:19:49] Speaker A: Yeah. If you're listening to that, counting down to the feast, that's a big yeah.
[01:19:55] Speaker B: But hopefully you do have a really great Easter and we will be back to wish you happy Easter at the appropriate time. After Easter. Don't forget, if you've got questions that you want to send into us, the littleflockpodcast.org. There's a link at the top of the page there. The back episodes are also there if you want to listen to those. If you're new here, please like subscribe, give us a rating, some stars if you're able to do that and share with your friends and family. And the other option is if you want to go to lifenet.org nz and you can fill in the form. There's a banner at the top of the page and you can just fill in the form and send us your questions. That way we find out instantly with an email and we'll happily address them or topics you'd like us to talk about on future episodes while you're there. If you want to support our ministry work, thank you so much to those who do. It's really essential. We couldn't do any of this without your support. It really does matter so much to us. If you want to support our ministry work, you can do
[email protected]. NZ become a regular AP donor to our ministry and you will get a tax receipt at the end of the year. Or go to patreon.com left foot media. Become a $5 monthly patron and get a daily podcast which explores current affairs news. We often report on issues that no one else is reporting on as well, and we go deeper into those things. We explore the underlying ideological issues and also the important philosophical things that we should be listening to, that culture of goodness, truth and beauty. How can we live that out? Well, so it's not just news, it's not just gossip. It's really grappling with the issues of the day.
[01:21:20] Speaker A: You're not talking about the Kensington palace?
[01:21:22] Speaker B: Well, I did talk about that yesterday, actually, but very briefly.
[01:21:25] Speaker A: Poor Kate.
[01:21:26] Speaker B: That's an absurdity.
[01:21:26] Speaker A: Leave her alone.
[01:21:27] Speaker B: Absolute absurdity. But anyway, that's the heart of the story. So that's a sample of some of the stuff you hear about. But, yeah, it's not just gossip. It's not just, oh, the culture is bad. It's not just reactionary. It's like, let's go deeper. So if you want to actually be thinking deeper about current affairs, can I really commend that podcast to you? And I'm not just saying that because it's me. I'm saying it sounds really bad, doesn't it? Truss is the best podcast you'll ever listen to. Everyone says that. But I'm saying this because the feedback that we consistently get from people who are subscribers is that they're really finding it beneficial to shape and help confirm and support that authentically Christian worldview in them as the events come flying at them a hundred miles an hour, as they do today. Even if it is Kate Middleton and a supposedly dodgy photo.
[01:22:12] Speaker A: Let her get better.
[01:22:13] Speaker B: Just get over it, man. What a conspiracy theory that was. What's really happened? Have the lizard people taken her and kidnapped her up to space again?
[01:22:19] Speaker A: She's managed to Photoshop a photo while she was in a coma, which I'm very impressed with.
Our future queen.
[01:22:28] Speaker B: She's, like, got social media reflexes and.
[01:22:31] Speaker A: She'S just Google glasses.
[01:22:32] Speaker B: She's on her phone instagramming in a coma. Pure muscle memory. That's possible. One day it will happen. Alrighty, folks, I think that's all we want to say. So without any further ado, thank you again for tuning in. Don't forget, live by goodness, truth and beauty, not by lies.
[01:22:47] Speaker A: And we'll see you next time on the little flock.
[01:22:49] Speaker B: Bye bye.
[01:22:50] Speaker A: See you then.
The little flock is a joint production of the Lifenet charitable trust and left foot media.
[01:23:04] Speaker B: If you enjoyed this show, then please help us to ensure that more of this great content keeps getting made by becoming a patron of the show at forward slash left foot media.
[01:23:15] Speaker A: Thanks for listening. See you next time on the little flock.
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