22. Should We Celebrate Bossiness In Girls?

[00:00:06] Speaker A: Hi, my name is Caddy Malone and. [00:00:08] Speaker B: I'm Brendan the husband. [00:00:09] Speaker A: And you're listening to the little flock, the podcast that offers practical insights about living a counterculture of goodness, truth and beauty in a world of increasingly hostile secularism and indifference. [00:00:19] Speaker B: So if you're looking to learn from two imperfect followers of Christ about how to live like the wheat amongst the darnil, this is definitely the podcast for you. Hi everybody. Welcome back. [00:00:34] Speaker A: Hi everyone. [00:00:36] Speaker B: Katie, good to be back. [00:00:37] Speaker A: Isn't it always good to be back? [00:00:38] Speaker B: Another episode? [00:00:39] Speaker A: Spring day. [00:00:40] Speaker B: Yeah, it is. We have sprung into spring, as all the cheesy cringe nerds would say, sprung into spring. [00:00:45] Speaker A: It's going to rain the next five days, so let's soak it up while we can. [00:00:49] Speaker B: Apparently, polar blast as well. [00:00:51] Speaker A: You love a good polar blood. [00:00:52] Speaker B: Oh, I'd love some more snow. That snow was amazing we had a couple of weeks ago. Totally unexpected. Yeah, it is amazing. Spring has just suddenly come upon us and it's beautiful and it's so lovely to be out in the weather. And that means that we are now fast approaching Christmas. Have you thought about what you'd like me to tell you to get me to get you for Christmas? [00:01:17] Speaker A: Does it start with w and end and ski? [00:01:19] Speaker B: No, no, no. What you want and you're gonna tell me and then I will get it and I'll go, look, kids, I know your mum so well that I have time. I might have managed to catch the Black Friday sales in October. [00:01:32] Speaker A: That would be pretty organized. [00:01:34] Speaker B: Yeah, that would be. I'm not normally that organised, am I? Before we jump into our topics of conversation and questions today, folks, don't forget, please share and subscribe. Give us a rating whatever podcast platform you're listening on right now. If you can do that, that all helps the show. Send your questions to the littleflockpodcast.org [email protected] dot nz. At the top of both of those pages, there is a link for you to do that. You can fill out the form and send those questions into us. And of course, if you want to support our ministry work, you can do [email protected]. leftfootmedia the link is in today's show notes and what you can do is you can become a regular monthly subscriber with as much or as little as you want to. If you subscribe with $5 or more per month, you get access to our daily episode of the Dispatches podcast. That might not interest you cause it's me. Just, you know, talking about politics and caring for it. [00:02:29] Speaker A: Cause I get it for free. [00:02:30] Speaker B: You can't get it for free. Just every time. Free opinions wandering around the kitchen. Let me tell you what I think about the current state of geopolitics in the Middle east. Good. So, yeah. So yeah, if you want that, you can get it that way. Or you don't have to listen to it on the table if you lost your money. Anyway, can I say too, that if you do go that way, you'll be helping to support some other things that we've got coming up in November, we are starting a brand new monthly video livestream show. Not me and Katie, but me and Dean Masjewski, another friend of mine. And we're gonna have a third guest on in person in the room each time. Plus, we've also got, starting from October, a, I know a lot of you have connected with my video commentary work on film and television and stuff like that. And you really like the YouTube videos. And I made a commitment earlier this year that I was gonna get back into it, but I almost burnt myself out trying to do that. It was just too much. So I've made a decision that what I'm going to be doing starting from October is I'm going to be taking one week every single month where I don't produce a daily podcast episode and instead dedicate that time to producing a video that week. Because it takes a bit more time to actually edit and stuff like that. [00:03:39] Speaker A: So put makeup on, all of that. [00:03:40] Speaker B: Yeah, get my makeup on, get my face on. But it's the post production editing and stuff like that. It takes a bit more time, but that's coming. So you'll be helping to support that or Lifenet.org dot NZ. And the website's had a bit of a refresh, so go and check it out. Even if you've already seen it, go and look. The list of available presentations that we can offer is now updated. And also you'll see the actual website has been updated with some. Yeah, a new look. [00:04:04] Speaker A: Fancy. [00:04:05] Speaker B: Yeah, it's nice. So go and check that out. Lifenet.org dot nz. And there's a donate button and it's got details about how you can become a donor if you're in New Zealand. You can claim back your tax if you donate to us that way. Yeah. So, Katie. [00:04:16] Speaker A: Whoo. [00:04:17] Speaker B: That was all. [00:04:17] Speaker A: Was that a fun noise for. Well, that's the wrap up. The wrap up of the noise of the thing that we say every week. [00:04:23] Speaker B: Everyone back to class now. Notices are over. Mister Smith would like to see all the students from five B in his office at morning tea time. No, none of that kind of caring, actually. I was in a school Monday, wasn't it? [00:04:36] Speaker A: Yep. [00:04:37] Speaker B: And in the school I was set up. I spent the whole morning speaking across multiple classes there. And in between two of the periods, I had to sit and there was a bigger break. So they, they put me in the principal's office. [00:04:51] Speaker A: Freaking out. [00:04:52] Speaker B: Oh, my gosh. Back here again. And the principal was away, though. He's at a conference. So they put me in the principal's office, set me up there with my computer to work and do my thing while I was waiting for the next period. And I saw in the corner, they've got one of those old school PA microphones, you know, that you press the. [00:05:09] Speaker A: Button and just talk to the whole. [00:05:10] Speaker B: I was so tense. I was just thinking to myself, imagine just walking over there and doing something hilarious, you know, that would, in the vein of Shawshank redemption, lock yourself in the principal's office, put on a record and just play it over the mic. But I love that concept. I love that the principal can just interrupt your class time and just start, you know, issuing command. [00:05:32] Speaker A: Coming message from the big giant. [00:05:33] Speaker B: Yeah, that's exactly what I was thinking. Incoming message from the big giant head. Name that show, folks, and we will give you a prize. We will honour you in the next episode. Right, Katie, let's get into today's topic of conversation and we're going to start. We've got one article that we're going to actually read through and a couple of questions related to this because it sort of struck me as important. And then we've got three questions that we're going to engage with as well, plus our moment of goodness, truth and beauty. So let me read to you from this article and it's got a great title. This is what caught my eye. First of all, your children are more important than your dreams. And I was like, whoa, this is kind of counter cultural, isn't it? So let me read this to you. The phenomenon known as ballerina farm on Instagram is one of the most popular mums, which I should say moms. [00:06:18] Speaker A: Moms, yeah. [00:06:19] Speaker B: American. In America. Have you heard of ballerina Farm? [00:06:22] Speaker A: 100%. The algorithm pushes ballerina farm at me for. [00:06:25] Speaker B: I knew, I knew. I was like, I bet she has heard of. [00:06:28] Speaker A: I've watched a few videos. I haven't really engaged. [00:06:31] Speaker B: Right. How would you rate ballerina farm out of ten? [00:06:33] Speaker A: It's really interesting. [00:06:34] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:06:35] Speaker A: Yeah, it's really interesting. She's definitely countercultural. [00:06:37] Speaker B: Okay. [00:06:38] Speaker A: Yeah. And she's definitely making a whole lot of money off that. [00:06:41] Speaker B: Really? [00:06:41] Speaker A: Oh, yeah. But so what? [00:06:44] Speaker B: She'd be milking the algorithm. [00:06:45] Speaker A: Oh, yeah, of course she is. But. But at the same time, I feel like she's quite a genuine, beautiful person. Yeah, yeah. And I know where this article's going, clearly, but can I say two people. [00:06:57] Speaker B: When it comes to making social media money, like, I don't know as much, to be fair, about the money making on Instagram, but I know, for example, on YouTube, that basically they've cribbed back what they pay people now. So you get millions of views and you don't. Once upon a time, that was a lot of money. Not anymore. [00:07:14] Speaker A: Yeah, I'm sure they've got a whole lot of other. Got their fingers and lots of pies, got the actual farm and all of that. And I think also selling deals, something that people get angry about is, I feel like there might be family money. Like, her parents are quite well off, so. [00:07:31] Speaker B: Like, as in, oh, you're able to promote yourself because you're rich or. [00:07:35] Speaker A: Well, yeah, or you're able to live a certain lifestyle and you can stay home with all your children. [00:07:38] Speaker B: Yeah, but that's funny. It's. The politics of envy is not good like that. I think about that a lot, and I realize I. No, the christian way has never been that we would. In fact, this morning, this very morning, Mark's gospel, I was reading about the pouring. Sorry, I said the purring. There was a cat there, the pouring of the expensive jar of perfume, the nard on the feet of Jesus. And some people, ah, that money should have been, you know, given to the poor, should have sold it. And Jesus said, no, she did a good thing. And so Christianity has never been that. We're all meant to be equal in all things. We're equal in our moral worth. We are all equally children of God. No one is morally superior to anybody else. But there will be inequality. And in fact, in the gospels, you know, the parable of the servants and the faithful servant and the tenants and stuff, and, you know, to whom much is given, much will be expected. So, yeah, I've got no problem with people if they're blessed with that wealth. And probably generationally, someone in their family's worked hard. [00:08:36] Speaker A: That's right. [00:08:36] Speaker B: To accrue that. Not everyone was a slave owner. You know what I mean? That's the myth. So, yeah, Andrew. So she gets your thumbs up, though. [00:08:43] Speaker A: Oh, yeah, yeah. I mean, I don't. I don't follow. I don't currently follow, but I do. If the. Yeah, if it pops up, I'll have a little look. [00:08:49] Speaker B: I love this next line with her eight children, a gaggle of hogs. The hogs. [00:08:55] Speaker A: Is that the collective noun for a gig I'm gonna have to look? [00:08:57] Speaker B: Well, yeah, maybe it is. [00:08:58] Speaker A: I don't know if it is. [00:08:59] Speaker B: You're not sure, are you? [00:09:00] Speaker A: Well, it's a drift of pigs, so I don't know if it's a gaggle of hogs. It's a gaggle of geese. [00:09:04] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:09:05] Speaker A: So we're mixing it. [00:09:06] Speaker B: Yeah, something's going wrong here. [00:09:07] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. [00:09:08] Speaker B: A murder of crows. Everyone knows that now. But, yeah, there was a film, wasn't there, called a murder of crows with her eight children, a gaggle of hogs. And I was like, oh, we're our kids there at her place. Endless Instagram videos of baking from scratch. [00:09:22] Speaker A: Well, I guess that's her main thing. I think that's kind of how she started. [00:09:25] Speaker B: When they say from scratch, they mean. [00:09:26] Speaker A: Like, oh, literally like sourdough bread. Like everything. She makes her own mozzarella. [00:09:30] Speaker B: Okay. [00:09:31] Speaker A: From the raw, from the ground up. [00:09:33] Speaker B: And her 10 million followers. [00:09:36] Speaker A: Crazy. [00:09:38] Speaker B: That'd be a lot of followers, I'll tell you. That's funnily enough, though, now on social media, it's not unusual for people to have now in the fifties to hundreds, millions of followers. Yeah. Anyway, that's still up there, though. Hannah Nealman, I think. Neil Eman. Okay, there you go. Hannah Neeleman is a mum, a mom to be reckoned with. Oh, and she also wins beauty pageants. Like a boss. [00:10:03] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:10:04] Speaker B: How do you win them? Like a boss? [00:10:05] Speaker A: She was in a beauty pageant, like, six or seven weeks after having her 8th baby. Wow. I was like, wow, that's a bit bonkers. [00:10:11] Speaker B: Americans love the beauty pageant, eh? [00:10:12] Speaker A: Yeah. And she probably gets a bit of money from that, too. [00:10:14] Speaker B: Lovely beauty pageant. Did you see the news last week? There's first time ever there was a winner who was pregnant in a beauty pageant. I thought that was lovely. [00:10:22] Speaker A: That's awesome. [00:10:23] Speaker B: And she is a Juilliard trained ballerina. That's, you know, that's definitely. You've come from money in America if. [00:10:29] Speaker A: You'Re juilliard trained ballerina, but also you have some crazy talent because the auditioning process is pretty full on. [00:10:35] Speaker B: A recent article on Hannah and her husband Daniel threw the digital world into hysterics. The digital world. Funny, isn't it? And here's the interesting thing, is the digital world becoming increasingly the real world? [00:10:47] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:10:47] Speaker B: I've been listening to some interesting commentary lately by people who are suggesting that more and more that is the case because it's the place where people take their mask off and they exist so much of the time, they're now particularly younger generations. And so often they'll show you who they really are online. Cause they think no one else is watching, which is kind of interesting. Interesting, yeah. Anyway, the digital world went into hysterics. A main source of outrage is that Hannah gave up her dreams of being a ballerina to be a wife and a mother. Many are also horrified that Hannah has little time to herself and sometimes works to the point of exhaustion. News flash, all mothers of young children have little time to themselves and work to the point of exhaustion. Frequently. Not just little children. [00:11:27] Speaker A: No. Yeah, true. Yeah. Children of any age. [00:11:30] Speaker B: Yeah. And I know for you that unlike your Dalad husband, you will often lie awake at night when our older ones are out, even with friends. And you were sort of worrying, are they coming home? You know, like. So, yeah. Exhaustion doesn't end with the little leagues, does it? But that's an interesting thing, isn't it? This whole culture of, I need time to myself, you know? And, yeah, I mean, whereas, I mean, there's a very recent phenomenon. Most parents, our parents generation and prior, would have just thought nothing of working themselves to the bone for their family. [00:12:01] Speaker A: Of a certain class. [00:12:03] Speaker B: Yes, that's true. [00:12:04] Speaker A: If you've watched any dungeon Abbott. [00:12:06] Speaker B: Yes, you're right. If you were of money, then for sure you were born. In fact, they were the polar opposite really, weren't they? They probably didn't spend enough time, a lot of them, with their kids. [00:12:16] Speaker A: Yeah. I don't think they necessarily went in for the time alone. They were always sort of taking turns about the. And in many cases probably worked quite hard in that regard. [00:12:26] Speaker B: But let's get back to the ballerina thing. When Hannah put on her first pair of ballerina slippers, did her parents think, hallelujah, no motherhood for her, no wifehood for her. We want our daughter to remain a single, solitary soul, dancing into old age, wearing tutus and toe shoes forever. Not likely. And who would want that? Because you can't do that forever. I mean, that's the thing. I'm living my dreams and it's like, but what about in ten years time when those dreams become beyond your grasp because the physical reality of aging takes hold? What then? It's all fun. And we don't tend to think, hey, we're so atomized, even from our own history and our own sort of futures because we stuck in the here and now. Here's the thing. Hannah is not alone in giving up on her dreams or giving up, sorry, her dreams to raise a family. Almost everyone does this. Did you do that, do you think? [00:13:18] Speaker A: I don't think so. I figure out whether I had any dreams that I've had to kind of give up. I think, no, I never had. [00:13:27] Speaker B: And I always just. I fell into a trap, and this is what got me into a spot of burnout earlier this year. I fell into a trap of listening. They are good people listening to some good people who talk about, like, planning and motivation. And they're very sort of driven types, and they. Everything's planned and they get up at sort of 04:00 a.m. and every day's like that, even the weekends and every hour is something, and it's all planned, and it all seems a little bit too perfect at times, actually. But they're like, no, you've got to have this plan, you've got to have this ambition, and you've got to have a three year, four year. And I got stuck into that. And actually, it's not me. I've realized that's not me who talked. [00:14:03] Speaker A: About sucking the marrow out of life. Yeah, I love that poem. [00:14:06] Speaker B: Yes. [00:14:06] Speaker A: But sometimes sucking the marrow of life means having a really good nap when you need one, like actually embracing your humanity fully and, yeah, resting when you should rest and partying when it's time to. Not partying, but you know what I mean? Like, what's it festivaling? Feasting. [00:14:21] Speaker B: Yeah. Well, we've got to be careful, too, that we don't get caught in this sort of hamster wheel, this cycle of productivity. Yeah. And we think, oh, my life. In actual fact, in the christian vision of reality, the value, the worth of life is often found that more often than not, and just stopping and resting in God and stopping and sitting in a moment of beauty. And it's not in busyness and productivity at all. But I've realized, yeah, I was never someone who had this, you know, I've got this plan and I've got this big dream, and when I'm 40, I'll be doing this and I'll be a millionaire by 55. I had none of that. And I used to think I got into a phase, I said, of thinking that was something, there was something wrong or deficient, but in actual fact, I don't think that's deficient at all. As long as you are actually on the right path. [00:15:04] Speaker A: I think I've possibly had a couple of dreams, so to speak, since I became a mum, that I've had to say, nut that's not going to serve our family. [00:15:12] Speaker B: Well, what were they? Do you want to. [00:15:13] Speaker A: Well, I looked at that anaesthetic technician. [00:15:15] Speaker B: That's right, you did. [00:15:16] Speaker A: And I was quite passionate about it and quite, like, taken with it. But when I went to the information session, you know, it's 40 hours a week plus study, I was like, I can't. I can't do that and serve our family, you know? And that's like, you just have to. I was glad that I looked into it. [00:15:32] Speaker B: Would you go back to it, let's say, if the younger ones got old? [00:15:35] Speaker A: Well, the scenery's changed now, and it's a different, like, the structure of it. Maybe it still looked like Lucy. When I took Lucy on that tour of the nursing campus recently, I was very excited. I loved it. And she was like, you could still do it, mum. And I'm like, yeah. And it was nice to have my teenage daughter being like, hey, you could do that if you wanted to go. [00:15:52] Speaker B: Back and study together. [00:15:56] Speaker A: People I do follow on instagram have done that recently. [00:15:58] Speaker B: Really? Studying with their daughters. Okay. [00:16:00] Speaker A: Going to college with their kids. [00:16:02] Speaker B: Where are we? And women are not the only ones who regularly give up their dreams for the sake of their families. Most men give up their boyhood dreams of becoming professionals, athletes to do something far less glamorous. And I think that's. That's probably true, right? Particularly in America, I'd imagine. My dad is such a man. He was a great football player in high school. And they mean gridiron american football. In fact, some might say he was phenomenal. The local newspaper ran stories about him. Football was his life, and he seemed destined for greatness. Then he met my mom. My mom. They got married, and soon there was a baby on the way. My dad was practicing with the college football team of his dreams at the time. My dad realized there wasn't time in the day for him to go to school, go to work and go to practice and nurture his marriage. So he gave up football. He gave up football. He poured himself into work and school and caring for my mother, who was throwing up multiple times a day. He eventually graduated from college. My mother eventually had the baby and then had three more. One of them was me. I was thinking about that as reading that. Did I have a dream that I gave up? Probably. Music was my thing, and I thought maybe I would have this career in music. It's a bit hard to have that career in New Zealand. We are quite a small nation. But I was always, and I still am, competent in the band thing. And as a frontman and a singer, that was my strength. And so I just imagined that there would be. I would still be right now in a band or whatever, but that wasn't to be. That was something that became pretty apparent, that that's not a lifestyle. [00:17:30] Speaker A: No. [00:17:31] Speaker B: That is conducive to family. So, funny enough, but I've also discovered something interesting. Maybe Socrates and Aristotle were right about. You can't really do philosophy until you're in your forties. They thought, I don't know if you can do really good, honest music in songwriting until that age, either. I've discovered lately I've become better at that, because everything, the view of life, the knowledge you have about the world, everything deepens. And it's quite interesting that, eh. Whereas I look back when I was younger, some of their stuff was just very sort of superficial. Had some great bangers in there, but there was some real sort of superficial stuff in the back then I was like, oh, wow, it's so amazing, this song. And it's like my parents both worked like crazy, keeping our family afloat. And it floated, barely. I had an absolutely stellar childhood full of camping trips and backyard swings and never enough money. But that last part isn't what mattered the most. What mattered the most is that I knew my parents loved me and I knew they'd make any sacrifice for me. Yeah, that's true. [00:18:26] Speaker A: It's beautiful, isn't it? And that makes me feel good. [00:18:29] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:18:29] Speaker A: Cause there's never enough money. [00:18:30] Speaker B: No. And my childhood, by the way, was very. A poor childhood. And no camping trips. No. No camping trips at all. We couldn't afford them. But I always say to people, even as a welfare class, very poor family, I wouldn't trade my child. I have great memories of just. There was love in our home. [00:18:46] Speaker A: Just like, what's that bit on black books where he's like, I was just out there with two sticks and a bit of an old bone. I often think about that. I'm like, get outside. Find some sticks. [00:18:56] Speaker B: I remember there was a subdivision. It took years for them to finally build on this land, but the land was sort of old and overgrown. And then at one point, they were just dumping hills of dirt. Like, there was all these clod hills. And we'd just go down there for the day and, like, we'd. Other local kids would turn up and there'd be a clod war. Parents had no idea where we were. And then we'd come home, and it was just. It was very mundane, inexpensive. You know, the most expensive it got was when someone you knew whose parents probably had a little bit more coin, a little bit more scratch to throw around, would turn up and would buy, you know, a big bottle of Fanta or something and share it all out. [00:19:33] Speaker A: With everyone on your Fanta. [00:19:35] Speaker B: This dude's rich. Okay. Parenthood is a position of sacrifice. Author and psychoanalyst Erica commissar. So, commissar says parenthood comes with the sacred obligation of nurturing. I love that, you know, that we've lost that languaging. [00:19:53] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:19:54] Speaker B: Because it elevates parenting to say, yeah, you're building the domestic church, and what you're doing is sacred. It's not just another job. [00:20:00] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:20:01] Speaker B: It's not like, oh, you could have a career in the. [00:20:03] Speaker A: I also think, like, there's something to be said about a bigger sacrifice, making smaller sacrifices easier. And by smaller sacrifices, I don't mean ones that are easier because they're smaller. I mean ones that are, like, harder because they're all the time, like, you're always having to clean up. You're always having to tell someone to brush their teeth. You know, there's constant sacrifices of parenthood that are quite little in the bigger picture but are hard because of their constancy. But if you've made these bigger sacrifices to have a family, like, with that perspective of, I'm actually choosing this, and I know it's not gonna be easy, kind of makes those little ones, well, you know what? [00:20:45] Speaker B: The difference would have to be there. And I think you're right. You have to make the sacrifice. And I wonder today whether a lot of people do. I wonder if a lot of people go in thinking, I will have children. So they want to have the children, but they think, I will have my cake and eat it, too. And if you've never made the sacrifice part, then when the little bits come, it's like, oh, this is so hard. Cause in your mind, it's like, it wasn't supposed to be a sacrifice. It was supposed to be what I wanted. It was on my terms, and it was a thing that I'd do, and I would get gratification from it. But if you start by saying, like, you're right there, I'm making this sacrifice, and I recognize it as a sacrifice, then the little things are like, well, of course they come with it. You know, it's like being married for life. There's no outclaws so you just. You throw yourself into it. I think, to be fair, mums are the ones who do the lion's share of sacrificing. [00:21:33] Speaker A: Generally, men do have some families where it's. [00:21:35] Speaker B: But, yeah, I think mums definitely carry the can in that way, in a bigger way. Where were we? This. Oh, yeah. To nurture others requires sacrifices of self. And that's what you were just saying. This does not mean we fail to care for ourselves or that we never pursue hobbies or do anything for fun ever again. But it does mean we offer humongous. [00:21:56] Speaker A: Humongous. [00:21:57] Speaker B: Whoa, that word's humongous. Humongous amounts of time, energy, resources, sleep and emotional investment in the name of our children's wellbeing. All decent parents do this. That's it. [00:22:08] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:22:09] Speaker B: You know, just get over yourself. To be a decent parent, you just gotta do this. Suck it up, sunshine, and get back into the line. All decent parents make sacrifices so that their children can eat, sleep in a bed, and possibly even take dance lessons or join a basketball club. Only a tiny sliver of the population will dance or play ball professionally, and even that won't last forever. That's true. Everyone thinks, oh, I'm going to aspire to my dreams. But it's like, in actual fact, the positions available out there are minimal for all those dreams. You can't all be Taylor Swift. I hate to break it to people, but it's just not that way, you know? But family relationships will last if we're wise enough to forge them. And somehow, amid all the sacrifice, we end up the better for it. Speaking of Taylor Swift, I often think about, in light of this, she's got everything that, in theory, a modern girl could want. And I don't mean to pick on Taylor, by the way, but she's got, you know, she's got wealth, she's got fame, a string of famous boyfriends, famous boyfriend and famous football player right now. And she's had Hollywood elites and musicians and all the rest of it. But you still get that sense. I was trying to explain this to my daughters recently, that something's not quite complete there. [00:23:17] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:23:17] Speaker B: And that even in her lyrics I hear and her talking, the sense that she would have probably prefer to find that man of her dreams and actually settle down and find something deeper and more permanent. But she's got everything, in theory that you'd want. If one. Sorry. If no one. If no one moved on from their dreams of throwing footballs or tying on their toe shoes. Sorry. In order to bear, raise, nurture and support children. The world would be full of old people with bad knees, concussed heads and empty homes. Well, you wouldn't even have that because who would go and watch football if there's no families? [00:23:51] Speaker A: Yeah, true. [00:23:52] Speaker B: You know, you just. The world is familial and the world would collapse in one generation because no one would have. Oh, there we go. Would have kids. There would be a whole lot of lonely has beens out there without their own little cheering squad. These are known as families. To remember they used to be something and to see that they still are something. You know what I've discovered as well about families is that kids like even your basic level of skill, they think that you are just. You know, when I sing a song, they think they're listening to Pink Floyd, for Pete's sake. It's not up there at all, but in their mind. And then they get a bit old and they're like, oh, dad. But you know what I mean. Yeah. So should Hannah Neeleman have rejected the marriage proposal so she could follow her dreams? Well, if she had, she would have had the great pleasure of pulling her pale pink ballet tights on over her varicose veins when she turned 60 without an adoring audience to laud her fading grace and beauty. But instead, she had kids and she's having the time of her life raising them. And when she's 60, she'd be surrounded by people who exist, because she exists. And these people will laugh and cry and dream and dance with her. [00:24:59] Speaker A: Do you know what annoys me as well? Is that all of these people that got up in arms about this article, I didn't actually read the article, but I read some commentary on it. [00:25:08] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:25:09] Speaker A: Like, assuming that her dream was to be a ballerina. [00:25:13] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:25:13] Speaker A: And, like, she probably kind of. Maybe she went, well, I've achieved that now. I went to juilliard. I've been a ballerina. Maybe her dream was to have a family and live on a farm. In a farm. Yeah. [00:25:23] Speaker B: Maybe she never gave up her dream. And that's a great point, because the assumption is. [00:25:28] Speaker A: But you had this amazing thing. [00:25:30] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:25:30] Speaker A: That must have been your dream. Why did you stop having it? [00:25:32] Speaker B: The assumption is that the self referential art or business pursuit or career pursuit is the dream. And the family's the second dream. [00:25:41] Speaker A: 15 minutes of fame. Right. Is more important. [00:25:43] Speaker B: But what if it's not? [00:25:44] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:25:45] Speaker B: And why don't we celebrate the little girls who say, or little boys, I want to be a mum. Or I want to be a dad. Why it's so weird, eh? It's actually demonic, is what it is. Because the devil hates family. It's just that simple. It's true my dad gave up football, but did he? He passed his love of the game onto my brothers. He spent countless hours playing catch with them and watching their games and playing football. Sorry, this pop up keeps appearing in front of me, playing football with them and the neighbourhood boys on frosty Thanksgiving mornings. His new dream was to watch them and me excel not just at football or chess or soccer, but to excel at life. His new passion became us. And my mum, my mom. That is not a tragedy. It is a triumph. And that's true. That really is true. You do that, you see your kids and you're like, man, I want them to succeed. At a recent family gathering that included one of his infant great grandsons. Man, I'd love it if I could get to that stage. Great grandkids, man. It'd be awesome. My dad was reflecting on walking away from football. He said, I'm happy I did it. It was the right choice. I know what it's like to score a winning touchdown, but laughing with babies is better. That is a great quote and that is a good man. If you had told the 18 year old version of my dad that someday he'd think babies were more interesting than football, he would have laughed his head off. But the truth is, as life pushes on, we don't just abandon our dreams. Our dreams change, they mature, they grow and they become better than we could have ever imagined. Did giving up professional ballet wreck Hannah Neeleman's life? Giving up football wreck my dad's life? You decide. That's beautiful. Eh? Very important article, too, I think, about perspective. [00:27:24] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:27:25] Speaker B: So I guess the question, two questions I wanted us to talk about on the back of this is, how do you think, like, we can practically live this profoundly important truth? Because it's one thing to say, yes. Yeah, but what does it. Does it mean to practically live this profoundly important truth? Where you do prioritize the good of a new dream, and also, I guess, you realign your dreams, because dreams are very self referential things and they can be hard to let go of. So how do you do that? [00:27:52] Speaker A: I think we need. Well, you have to rephrase to not what is my dream, but what's God's dream for me. [00:28:01] Speaker B: Yeah, that's great. [00:28:02] Speaker A: You know, that's correct. And that sounds a little bit 1980s. [00:28:07] Speaker B: Be there. My vision. Be there. [00:28:10] Speaker A: No, that's beautiful. Yes. [00:28:11] Speaker B: No, think about it. [00:28:12] Speaker A: It's the line, you know, the one we want. [00:28:18] Speaker B: And not my own. [00:28:19] Speaker A: That's not it. [00:28:20] Speaker B: And I'm giving up the saxophone for. [00:28:23] Speaker A: Jesus, but I think it's important. Yeah, that's the perspective. And that's the perspective I want my kids to have as well. What does God want for my life? [00:28:31] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:28:32] Speaker A: You know, what did he put, you. [00:28:34] Speaker B: Wise old soul would be the right person to ask. But that's true. That's the key. And I never even thought about that. You don't? It's not. I will change my dream for another one of my dreams. It is. I will conform myself more to God's vision and plan purpose for my life. [00:28:50] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:28:51] Speaker B: Yeah. That's so beautiful. Because that's what. Think about the Lord's prayer. Thy kingdom come, thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven. So in other words, we pray to discover and align our will. Sorry. More closely to what God's will is. [00:29:06] Speaker A: And we should be doing it in every moment of the day. And that sounds quite highfaluting, doesn't it? But as a parent, I think that really grounds you in that. What does God's will for me in this moment, God's will for me might be to fold the laundry or it might be to nag Nathaniel to Tadias bedroom. Or, you know, God's will can be quite mundane, if that. I mean, it sounds awful word, God's will, but. But it's glorious at the same time. [00:29:32] Speaker B: I agree. [00:29:33] Speaker A: On a human level, it feels. [00:29:34] Speaker B: Yeah, I absolutely agree with you, what you're saying, but also, at the same time, it's not mundane. And I think we. [00:29:40] Speaker A: Because it has glorious purpose, right? [00:29:41] Speaker B: Yes. And mundane is our perspective and it's also our feelings based perspective. And our feelings are notoriously unreliable. We think I'm supposed to feel this. [00:29:50] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I should love folding. [00:29:52] Speaker B: You will feel it. And there'll be other times where you don't feel it, but you're not supposed to actually feel it. [00:29:56] Speaker A: I don't feel like cooking dinner six nights out of seven. [00:29:59] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:30:01] Speaker A: I do it because my family needs feeding and I want them to have possible good, wholesome meals. [00:30:06] Speaker B: Because you don't want your husband cooking his Savloy satay. [00:30:09] Speaker A: Savloi satay. [00:30:12] Speaker B: Get out of the kitchen. [00:30:13] Speaker A: Dad will cook your satos, so don't. [00:30:16] Speaker B: Let that man anywhere. But, yeah, your feelings and notorious. And notoriously unreliable. They're self referential and in actual fact, God does his work. In those moments, like I often say to audiences, the question we should keep asking ourselves is, how do I love more authentically in this moment? And the answer will be different depending on the moment. Like, in the moment, cleaning the toilet might be, for me, it's often, oh, the dishwasher's finished. I could carry on where I'm going, or I could stop and spend the next five to ten minutes unloading that dishwasher. And that's me loving more authentically in that moment. [00:30:50] Speaker A: So, yeah, Mother Teresa said, do. What is it? Do ordinary things with great love, with extraordinary love, clean things. You can actually offer it up. Yeah. You can pray while you do those jobs, and you can make them something holy. [00:31:02] Speaker B: Yeah, but that point you made is great, that it's actually not about aligning our dreams or realigning our dreams. It's about aligning ourselves to God's. I don't say dream. God calling God's purpose and also his purpose is often very ordinary, and that's how we know it. Like, if you're married, you've got God's purpose. It's like, what's my purpose? Okay, you're married. So you got a vocation there. Have you got children? Yes. Okay. So there's a whole lot of obligations and requirements that come with that. That's what God's purpose is. It's not. Oh, yeah. But I've got to go off and be a missionary, or I've got to have this big ministry. That is your ministry. Don't undervalue it. And then the second question I had was, how do we grow aspirational kids without the selfish excesses? So I want our kids to have this vision as well, where they're not, like, they have aspirations. Cause that is important. But they don't get caught up in the modern, I guess, influencer culture. It's all about me. I'm a celebrity because I am famous, and that's all I'm a celebrity for. It's just because I'm known. I have no Kim Kardashian. Yeah. I have no contribution I've made. I'm not a great actor. I'm not a great sports men or man or woman. I'm not a carpenter of renowned or an artist. I'm just a dude on social media with a million followers. [00:32:26] Speaker A: Yeah. So those numbers people our kids know that have said that's what they want to be when they grow up. Hey, crazy influences. [00:32:32] Speaker B: Well, I saw a survey, some commentary a couple of years ago about this, and they had. They do the survey, and in the states, they were like, you know, what are the top five things that you want. And these are younger people saying this. And in the top five, in fact, I think it might have even been number one or two, was like YouTube influencer. And this is in the western countries. [00:32:51] Speaker A: Have you told them they won't make much money? [00:32:53] Speaker B: Pointless. Yeah, exactly. So much. I mean, I've got what, 33,000 subscribers and even me, that is not, you know, we might scratch a couple hundred bucks a year and YouTube's advertising all over my videos all the time without my permission. And still you don't get much from it. But, yeah, what they surveyed though, China, and there's no YouTube influencers in their top five. It's like astronaut. Oh, yeah, astronaut, doctor, join the army. It's like, okay, I think I know who's winning this long term war then. And it ain't the american social media influences, you know, so. Yeah, but, yeah, how do you have the aspirational? Because you do want to have aspiration, but then you also need to have that willingness to say, new dreams, new time, new dreams. How do we do that? [00:33:41] Speaker A: I think also giving them a perspective on your purpose. Dreams need to serve others first. God, others than yourself. [00:33:54] Speaker B: So again, it's about orientating the goods first. And because Augustine would say this, that evil is a couple of things, it's a privation of good, just like darkness is not a thing, it's the absence of light. Evil is the absence of good. And it's also, according to Augustine, I think he's absolutely right about this. Evil is a disorder of the goods. So, you know, the good of a ham sandwich, but not above your own children. I prioritize a ham sandwich over the life of my child. No, there's something wrong there. Right, so that's. And that's evil. It's a disordering of the goods. And so you're right, there's part of it. Is there? First of all, do they have an ordering of the goods? So God is the, you know, the summum bonum, the supreme good above all others, the source of all good. And then perhaps those other goods have a context. [00:34:42] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:34:42] Speaker B: And also, like, even if you have been blessed, you know, you're a great basketball or a great artiste, are you serving the ultimate good? Who is God with that? Or are you just serving yourself? [00:34:53] Speaker A: How are you using that platform to witness? And. [00:34:55] Speaker B: Yeah, and that brings us back to where we started, with families who have a bit more wealth. There's nothing wrong with those natural goods. [00:35:02] Speaker A: No, that's right. [00:35:03] Speaker B: But are they at the service of the ultimate good? Do they serve a transcended, higher good or are they just self referential? Cause that's where the evil comes in. So, yeah, so I guess what you're saying there is. How do we grow aspirational kids without the selfish excesses? Well, encourage aspiration, but also reorientate them towards God and the ordering of the goods. [00:35:24] Speaker A: That's right. [00:35:24] Speaker B: And constantly encourage that. I think that's our job as parents, to help them say, hey, look, the good of this is good, but this is our first priority. So they know what the first love should be. [00:35:33] Speaker A: That's right. [00:35:34] Speaker B: Was it what Cs Lewis said? You know, first things put first things first, and then you get everything else that falls into place. So, yeah, it's interesting. I grew up in a welfare home, and one thing I often talk about was that certain aspirational thinking I noticed after I left home was missing a little bit. Missing? [00:35:51] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:35:52] Speaker B: Because my parents hadn't. I mean, they'd had those difficulties, that poverty. And it did make a difference. [00:35:59] Speaker A: Definitely. Yep. [00:36:00] Speaker B: Yeah. And I guess the last question I had was, I guess. And it sort of struck me as sort of an observation, but is this why community matters so much? If you think about what we've just read, because you can see others living fulfilled lives, you're like, oh, they're a married couple and they're happy, these friends of my mum and dad's or these people at church. And you can also learn from their wisdom before it's too late. [00:36:22] Speaker A: Yeah. Although, you know, I mean, yes, you can learn from their wisdom before it's too late. But sometimes you have to learn lessons your own way, right? [00:36:31] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:36:31] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:36:32] Speaker B: You still have to learn lessons. [00:36:33] Speaker A: Sometimes you go, look backwards and go, oh, I wish I'd learned from that wisdom before it was too late. But I think also, like in a community, in a genuine community, you. You see people serving others and having friendships with people that they may not have had they not been in that community, you know? And I think that's really good for our children to see us. We have friendships that are across all ages and, you know, ethnicities and denominations and lives. [00:37:01] Speaker B: We know social status and class, all of it. That's the beauty. A christian church is one that's healthy, is like a tribe in that way. I think variety of all stripes and flavors are there, and it's a beautiful thing. The communion line on Sunday morning is just a very diverse thing. It's hilarious. The most authentically diverse and welcoming place is in a church on a Sunday morning. Like, you look at the communion line in our catholic parish. And I tell you what, all these people outside, oh, yes, I'm a liberal. I'm progressive. I'm really big on tolerance and diversity. And when the mask is off on social media. No, they're not. That's just a lie. And they don't look. Diverse lives. And they, you know, they keep other people in certain classes. Diverse classes as like pets? Sort of social pets. Oh, yes. I have been to the local marae and visited with the tanga te whenua. They sort of, you know, but that's the extent of it. Whereas if you live it well in a christian denomination, you're living it every Sunday and other days of the week as well. It's quite a beautiful thing. But I think what I was thinking about as well is that you get to see and learn like older people that they can hand on to you. Advice like, hey, don't forget, while you're running around thinking that you're gonna be a football player or a ballerina, that there is more to life. But if you don't have that around you, you have no choice but to go and make the hard mistake and maybe mess it up really badly. Cause you spend so much time pursuing it and sort of invisible. What would you call it? A Potemkin village tilting at windmill? Something that can never be obtained. Cause it's not real. So there you go, Katie. That was our conversation for the month. [00:38:54] Speaker A: And it was the one conversation we had. [00:38:55] Speaker B: Well, it was a pretty decent one. Yeah, that was it. Yeah. No more conversation. I will send you the notes for next month's marital conversation, but, yeah, that's probably what they would. Downton Abbey. I would like to have a conversation, dear. All right. Book it into my schedule. My assistant will see if I have time available. But seriously, though, that music you just heard means that it's our moment of goodness, truth, or beauty. And before we get into that, I was actually going to say, as you were talking and we were discussing community at the end, it got me thinking about something I think we should do next month. So we're gonna. We're gonna hear from someone else. Yeah, a little bit of it'll be fun, actually. Be good. And we'll sort of respond to that. Anyway. Goodness, truth or beauty? Katie, would you like to go first? [00:39:36] Speaker A: I'm gonna let you go first because you've got multimedia. Well, I know you're excited. [00:39:39] Speaker B: If you insist. Let me shut this silly article down that is giving me pop ups all the time. I'm gonna set this up so that you can hear this, otherwise it's a bit pointless. So I'll do this, and then I'm gonna hit play on what is a video. It's a very short little TikTok. It's about a minute and a half long, and it's about this guy called Pascal, and it's this dude on TikTok, by the way, father Jared Boyce. Thank you. I saw you sharing this on Twitter, and I was like, oh, that is so beautiful. And this guy, it's kind of like humans of New York and all those other ones where they just go around and interview random people and find out about their life. And this is a little minute and a half about this guy called Pascal. And it was so beautiful, this man, when you hear his story, have a listen to his story and what he has to say, because I think it's just so beautiful. It just struck me as so important. So let's have a listen to this. Excuse me, sir. Are you from Belfast? [00:40:29] Speaker C: Yes, I am. [00:40:30] Speaker B: I think you've got amazing style. [00:40:31] Speaker C: You just. Of course, of course. Modesty is my middle there. Next month, I'll be the same age as Joe Biden, went to the university here. [00:40:40] Speaker B: What did you study at the university? [00:40:41] Speaker C: I studied classics, Greek and Latin. [00:40:43] Speaker B: What's your name? [00:40:44] Speaker C: Pascal. [00:40:45] Speaker B: Nice to meet you, Pascal. [00:40:46] Speaker C: I'm Chris Christopher of Christ. I never got married, but I still live in hope some short sighted woman might come along. They all seem to go to Specsavers. [00:40:56] Speaker B: A man of 81 years must have. [00:40:58] Speaker C: Some wisdom to share, to have a sense of wonder. When people were living in the country, they looked up into the starry skies at night, and they never stopped wondering. Straighten my hair. And now, getting into the last stages of my life, Satan's son reminds me of Homer's odyssey. The sun God Helios was urging on his fiery chariot to bring light to the immortals and to men who cloud the earth and perish. But as long as we leave something behind, a cheerful word can make a big difference. And if I see someone looking a little bit down, I may say a cheerful word. I wouldn't say that I'm particularly wise, but I'm very human. [00:41:42] Speaker B: You're a gentleman. Enjoy the rest of your day. [00:41:44] Speaker C: And you enjoy life, because if you don't, I will. [00:41:55] Speaker B: So there you go. That was Pascal. That was beautiful, eh? [00:41:57] Speaker A: What an awesome guy, eh, 81? [00:41:59] Speaker B: Well, actually, Pascal wanted to be married, but he and I love what he said about Wonderland, because that is the classical tradition that we should all be part of as christians. Of goodness, truth and beauty. And it has to begin with wonder. And we need to invoke wonder in our kids. That's the journey of learning. Like, I often think about Christianity and lots of stuff in this way. I'm just captured by the wonder of it and it just draws you in. I love it and I love talking about it with people, too. But it's the wonder. It begins with the wonder. And here's this man, he's 81, not married, but he would love to have been married. But you don't get a sense that there's anything that's dysfunctional about his life. [00:42:39] Speaker A: No. And he says, same age as Joe Biden, but seems a bit sharper. [00:42:43] Speaker B: Well, that's the difference, kids. Don't spend your life in the demonic cesspool that is politics, otherwise you will degenerate very quickly. Spend your life in the classics, like that man. But I also got to thinking about when he was talking, he was talking about Homer and the sun. But for the early christians, they saw that in the sun as well. The rising and the setting of the sun every day was actually a reminder of God's movement throughout life and history. And, you know, the resurrection every day. Just that. [00:43:11] Speaker A: Even jews, right, they're going to sleep as a little death. [00:43:14] Speaker B: Yep, yep. And then you see the sun rising and then, you know, coming from the tomb. Yeah, it's. It's. It's powerful. You know, there's something really beautiful about that. I just. Look, that was my moment of beauty, because it was just. It really. It was goodness, it was truth and it was beauty and it wonderful. What about you, Katie? [00:43:32] Speaker A: What's you? I had a couple. I had to decide between mine this month was just how we've recently had the end of our netball season over here, which is, you know, what, 20 something weeks of parental commitment to multiple trips to the stadium and practices, and. [00:43:51] Speaker B: Not feel like we've been living there. [00:43:52] Speaker A: Shelling out the massive amount of subs, which, at the beginning of the season seemed to increase every week, how much the subs were going to be. But Lucy's team, both the girls teams, got into semi finals and Lucy's team actually won their final, which was by one point. It was an awesome game. But I was just thinking, like, even if they hadn't won, that it would still have been worth it, all of the, you know, extra added family commitment and money and all that, because it was just so beautiful to see her. Like, we joined a different club this year and she brought some friends from her old club with her to see her building those new friendships with kids that are from, like, all different walks of life. [00:44:29] Speaker B: Quite a diverse club. [00:44:30] Speaker A: Like, they're extremely diverse. And I love seeing that. I love seeing how she's growing in that maturity, being able to make friends with, like, a couple of the girls are quite a bit older than her, you know, like, actually having friendships across the ages and across different. They've all come from different backgrounds and everything, so, yeah, that's been really beautiful. See how they gelled as a team, the respect they gave to their coach and. [00:44:54] Speaker B: Yeah, that's your dream. Your dream is shifting the beautiful. The ballerina dream. Yeah. Yeah, it is. It's amazing. That was. It was great. Great victory, too. Proud dad moment. That's really the competitive dad. I'm glad they wiped the fall with that. [00:45:09] Speaker A: Well, they didn't exactly what they won, but they earned it. [00:45:13] Speaker B: Yeah, they did. They worked hard. So that moves us, I guess, into our scripture reflection for the month. Katie, do you have. Oh, should I go first again? [00:45:20] Speaker A: I suppose because you're always making me go first. [00:45:23] Speaker B: Okay, then, like a gentleman, I will open the door for me, and I won't ruin the illusion by telling the listeners that it was literally just a couple of hours ago this morning that my scripture of the month actually became apparent as my scripture of the month. But I was. I've been reading through Mark's gospel every day. In fact, I have, on audible, David suchethehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehe. The great. [00:45:49] Speaker A: If anybody's gonna read you the gospel. [00:45:51] Speaker B: Yeah. Poirot. And there's this beautiful. On audible, they have the entire bible read by him. And what I love about it is not just that he's an actual theater trained actor, and he brings that to it, but he gives you these important inflections when, like, something's happening and someone is speaking in this dramatic tension in the moment. And it's actually a couple of times brought to life for me, things that I hadn't considered just hearing. Oh, of course, that's the way they're actually intending that. So it's really. It's quite beautiful. And I found it really helpful for me to actually spend time in the scriptures that way now. And so each morning, a new chapter of the Gospels at the moment. And so mark. We're in Mark at the moment, and it's chapter 14. And I talked about the jar of perfume that happened. But also the thing that really struck me was when Christ says to Peter at the last supper, and he, you know, he says, look, you know, you'll abandon me. And Peter loudly and very boldly declares, no, I'll never do such a thing. No way. And then Christ says, well, in actual fact, later on tonight, you are going to disown me three times. Before, you know, the dawn comes, you will have disowned me. And Peter just doesn't get it. And I thought to myself, a, that is the story of our lives, is it not, as christians. But here's the thing that really struck me as important about all of that is that Peter returns to Christ afterwards. And Christ does not hold it against him. He forgives him, he embraces him. You know, three times he says in response, feed my sheep. And he. That it's quite amazing. Like, when you think about it, Christ could have said, oh, well, you had this leadership calling on your life, Peter. But no, clearly I have to give it John. You know, he hung around. Maybe I'll give it to him instead. Because, yeah, you proved you're not up to the task. But he didn't. He didn't. And not only did he keep loving him, forgiving him, unlike Judas, who didn't come back, he fell into despair and didn't come back into repentance. Not only did Christ forgive him and embrace him once again, but he also. The calling never left his life. And it just dawned on me that that's, I think for us, maybe we can often get a little bit too. What's the word? We have a, perhaps a vision of God where he is overly punitive and we forget that in actual fact, God is a goddess of gratuitous love. The world was created so we could be in it, so that he could be in a relationship with us. Everything is out of love. And also, yes, there are consequences and there is eternal outcomes to our actions, but God's orientation towards us is love. He wants us to be with him. He's constantly calling us. He sends his only son to die for us. He wants to forgive, he wants to love, he wants to give himself to us. But we perhaps get stuck sometimes in this punitive thinking of, oh, he's like the referee with the red card. I make one mistake, that's it, I'm out. He wants to sort of abandon me or, you know, leave me to my sin and misery. But in actual fact, no. Just like Peter, he wants to embrace us again. He wants us to come back and even though he knows, it's quite amazing. Yeah, well, this is the end of our friendship, Peter. Cause you're gonna disown me three times tonight. He doesn't say that at all. He just tells him what's gonna happen. And also, I think there's a sense for me in which Peter, just like all of us, like he's got the best intentions. He's literally like, no, and I'm going to pledge my life to you, Jesus. And how often do we do that? It's like, yeah, I'm going to be a better husband. I'm going to be a better father, and I'm going to do it because God wants this of me. And then a week later, you know, we're slobbing out, watching rugby again or whatever, and it's like Christ still loves us, still calls us back and. And we have that opportunity to say, okay, yep, get back into it again. It's just. It really struck me as quite beautiful, that. [00:49:32] Speaker A: Awesome. [00:49:33] Speaker B: What about you? [00:49:35] Speaker A: Mine is from Romans and it was a verse that one of our parish priests mentioned in his homily a few weeks ago. Actually, I'm going to read the verse before as well because I think it's pertinent to our discussion today. So it's just the first two verses of Romans, chapter twelve. I urge you, therefore, brothers, by the mercies of God, to offer your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and pleasing to God, your spiritual worship. Do not conform yourselves to this age, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind that you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and pleasing and perfect. [00:50:08] Speaker B: Beautiful. [00:50:09] Speaker A: Yeah, it struck me. It was funny, actually, because I was sitting there listening to the homily and I was like, eh, the readings didn't really speak to me. And then he mentioned that and I was like, okay, that'll do. [00:50:16] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:50:17] Speaker A: Yeah. But, yeah, it's quite apt for what we've talked about today. I think, as well, that, you know, we need to discern God's will in each moment of our lives. And what is God's will? It is what is good and pleasing and perfect. But also in order to do that, we need to conform ourselves to the renewal of our mind. [00:50:34] Speaker B: Yeah, because otherwise you won't recognise goodness. [00:50:37] Speaker A: If your conscience isn't aligned and you're not in communion with the Holy Spirit, how are you going to actually hear the whisper? This is what God wants for you in this moment. [00:50:50] Speaker B: Yeah, that's the modern trap, right? The serpent in the garden all over. [00:50:53] Speaker A: Again, whispering in your ear saying, you'll. [00:50:56] Speaker B: Be just like God if you eat this fruit. And we go, oh, yeah, maybe that's because I feel good when I eat the fruit. Maybe that's what he wants for me. It's like, no, that's. You got to listen. Gotta discern. Yeah, that's beautiful. Alrighty, Katie. So that was our moment of goodness, truth and beauty for the month. Let's jump into our questions. Three questions here. Number one, how can we make our home a place which promotes the sacredness of God? And why is this important? [00:51:30] Speaker A: What a beautiful question. [00:51:31] Speaker B: So, yeah, that is a good one, right? How do we do that? How do we make that? [00:51:35] Speaker A: We do it by smothering our home in holy pictures and statues. [00:51:39] Speaker B: Booming Catholics, we got your glow in the dark Jesus. What about your glow in the dark St. Joseph Jesus? And if you turn the lights out, they all glow. Yeah, that's funny, isn't it? Yeah, it's just like you have a photo album, by the way, those who are not Catholic and who are listening, don't panic. We don't worship the statues. That would be idolatry and that would be forbidden by the commandments. Catholics are not permitted to do such things. But just like you have a photo album that reminds you of this profound, beautiful relationship that you have with the people you love. We have these little icons and images and other things that remind us of the beautiful saints and of God, of Christ and Christ himself, of course, and the holy family and all that sort of stuff. So, yeah, that's that we actually have sacred iconography. And I think that I've really come to appreciate and understand that. I think it makes a difference. Your kids get a sense. They see you're not just living in a cardboard box with four painted walls. There's like, oh, this is a christian home. So at the very least, you know, do you have a cross? Yeah, we have the Bible open on a little stand. [00:52:47] Speaker A: Scriptures. Yeah. [00:52:49] Speaker B: And look, I don't think you necessarily need to be going back to it every single day of the week, you know, and we go back to the scriptures and open it. But if you've got it somewhere prominent in your home and your kids see it there, and you're regularly engaging as a family with it, then I think what happens is there's a sense of. Yes, this one rule that I've noticed now kids have picked up on this I've had is that you never, ever put anything else on top of a Bible. The Bible. If you've got a pile of books, the Bible is always the one on top. And you certainly don't put, oh, well, let's just plonk this cup on top of it. No, you never do that because the scriptures are sacred and it's showing them there's something different about this. This is the word of God. Now, kids have picked up on this. I heard one of our youngest recently saying to someone, things don't go on top of the Bible. I was like, oh, great, they're getting it. Sacredness. What else do you think? Is there anything else you can think of? [00:53:41] Speaker A: Family prayer. Yeah, it's what you do as much as what you. [00:53:44] Speaker B: So mealtime graces, family prayer together, that's the sacredness of God. Worship together. Yeah. I really think that those visual things and the bodily actions together, I mean, you go back through history, even the poorest of families would have had something in their home that sort of set that home apart. Why is it important? [00:54:12] Speaker A: Oh, why is it important? I forgot about that. But, well, because our lives should be oriented towards God. [00:54:17] Speaker B: Yeah, because the thing is that your. [00:54:19] Speaker A: Home is a domestic church. [00:54:20] Speaker B: Yes, exactly. And I think the thing is, too, that, you know, our lives, everything we do is religious. You will worship one thing, and if you don't worship that thing, you worship another thing. And if you don't worship that thing, you worship another thing. And how do we know what you truly wish it? Well, what do you make sacrifice to? And what does your home reflect? Does your home reflect a truly counterculture, you know, christian goodness, truth and beauty, where Christ is the head? Or does it literally look like when you go back to your home, it just literally looks like a place without a culture or with a secular, practical, atheist culture? You know, when you're outside a church, do people know just by looking at your. Or coming like this? Often we have tradesmen who come to our home or courier guys, and there's one of those outside christian plaques about Christ in the home. And I can't even right now remember exactly the wording of it, but it basically declares, yeah, we're. [00:55:15] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:55:16] Speaker B: And people see it and just sort of. They know. Okay, we're dealing with some Bible bashes. [00:55:22] Speaker A: Here and the statue of Mary and the chalk over the doorways. [00:55:24] Speaker B: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Things like that. Yeah, we were dealing with some idol worshippers. Yeah, it's quite funny, but, yeah, something about that. This is sacred. This is different. Okay, so question number two. How do you. Oh, by the way, why I think it's important is because those statements, those visual representations, the iconography makes an evangelistic statement before you've even said a word. A person might encounter something they see in your home, and it might just be the thing that is the most important evangelistic thing, the seed that is sown. Number two, how do you handle the issue of music in your family home? Do you filter that? [00:56:11] Speaker A: I don't know. You can take this one, because I'm not really a music. Well, I did put some get up and dance music on this morning to get Nathaniel off the couch, but. [00:56:19] Speaker B: Well, I guess there's two aspects to this question, and I think we'll explore both. One is, I guess, music as a good. [00:56:25] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:56:26] Speaker B: And, yeah, you should have it in your family home. You should celebrate it. And one thing I've made an effort to do is try and give our kids, like, a breadth and depth they definitely have that. They really do. [00:56:35] Speaker A: Tells that story about how the. When they first started high school, one of the teachers said, go in the circle, and these are the questions. And one of them was, who's your favourite musician? Who's your favourite band? And she said, the Beatles. And he was like, well, I'm gonna call her out. He said, what's your favourite song? And she said, blackbird on the White Album, the b side. And he was like, whoa. An actual fan. [00:56:54] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. This kid knows more than I do. [00:56:56] Speaker A: Yeah. Hang on a second. [00:56:56] Speaker B: Yeah, we got a music nerd on our headland. [00:56:59] Speaker A: Yeah, they do have. Very eclectic. I love the Taylor. [00:57:02] Speaker B: Taylor Swift. Yes. She's still on their platform, they know. [00:57:04] Speaker A: But, you know, you can't sort of put a record on without getting all the. What are the influences of this musician? Where did they get. You know. And everything goes back to the Beatles, of course. [00:57:14] Speaker B: Well, yes, that's certainly on Mum's side of the family, anyway. But, yeah, they know that they do. And it's not just the Beatles that Johnny Cash, the whole shebang. And then they also have the musical, particularly our daughter Maddie is. And she knows the musicals. Les Mis, the Phantom. [00:57:30] Speaker A: Phantom first and others. Wrong order. What did you have on last night? You're italian. [00:57:37] Speaker B: Dean Martin. [00:57:38] Speaker A: Dean Martin. [00:57:39] Speaker B: When the Moon hits. [00:57:41] Speaker A: This is so cheesy. [00:57:43] Speaker B: But they actually love it. Love it. Can't get enough. Yeah. So, yeah, they do have. And on the way to youth group last night, Evie was telling me that she really. Her and one of her friends really loved Frank Sinatra. Oh, wow. And I was like, what song do you like? And we were sharing songs that we like about. So, yeah, they do have an eclectic taste. And even Maddy on her bedtime playlist. She puts a little earbuds in to relax her and go to sleep. And she's got Miles Davis, kind of blue, the jazz album. And she can name tracks like, I don't know, too many kids. [00:58:14] Speaker A: I've got real talent. [00:58:15] Speaker B: But her age, who can name first baseball quality jazz musicians and say, yeah. [00:58:19] Speaker A: That'S any other music as well. By the first bar, she knows stuff. She's impressive. [00:58:23] Speaker B: So, yeah, we have the good of music. One thing we've also done, and this is not for everyone, I get it, but one thing that I have made an effort in is I have a vinyl collection. And why I've noticed that, is there's something different that goes on. Like, last night, we put on the Dean Martin LP at top volume. Yeah. [00:58:44] Speaker A: Caddy, just like Cam. We turn it down. [00:58:46] Speaker B: Katie's. I was this italian family, you know, gabba ghoul. Yeah. Sopranos. For poor old Katie, it was a. [00:58:56] Speaker A: Difficult situation, but I was trying to do. Yeah, I was trying to do nagging and it was. [00:59:01] Speaker B: Shut that down or there'll be a horse's head in your bed later on. So. But, yeah, a vinyl LP. There's something. The way a family comes together around a piece of physical, like, media is different, it's more communal and you can't skip tracks. It's actually been great because the kids are like, yeah, but let's go to the next track. It's like. It's not Spotify kids. And they've learned that lesson and they've also. They've now got their own little albums in the vinyl collection. So there's something about that. And it's a sort of very communal experience. So that's another thing we've done. You don't have to do that. It could be cds. It could still be streamed music. Yeah, it is. [00:59:35] Speaker A: In terms of what access they have to music. [00:59:38] Speaker B: Yeah, that's the other question. Do you filter? [00:59:40] Speaker A: Yeah, they are. [00:59:41] Speaker B: They have Spotify to varying degrees. So you are with our eldest daughter Katie and a couple of her friends. They're on the family plan, which makes it really cheap for everyone who buys into it, and that's helpful. The others are on the free version of Spotify and also they would listen on YouTube. [00:59:58] Speaker A: Oh, yeah. [00:59:59] Speaker B: As well. You've got to be careful with YouTube because adverts and videos and it's a bit different. [01:00:05] Speaker A: Mainly Spotify, to be fair. Even Nathaniel just listens to his masters of the year soundtrack over and over. [01:00:09] Speaker B: Yeah. He's listening to war movie soundtracks and things that we've watched together kills all. [01:00:13] Speaker A: Nod off by heart. [01:00:13] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:00:15] Speaker A: We possibly haven't run our eyes over the playlist in a while, so maybe that's something we need to look at. [01:00:19] Speaker B: But we had a rule. We had a very clear rule. [01:00:22] Speaker A: They know they're not allowed explicit. [01:00:23] Speaker B: Yeah. And that's the great thing about Spotify. Sometimes it's too cautious. You'll get explicit warnings on songs that don't have explicit language. So sometimes an artist will have two versions of a song, clean and explicit, but they all just get marked with the explicit. So things like that. But what's great is we have a rule, no explicit. And I think you've got a lead by example. [01:00:44] Speaker A: And we have rules around. The girls will listen to their music upstairs in their bedroom on their bluetooth. [01:00:51] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:00:52] Speaker A: But their laptops don't go up with them, so they come down, turn it off at a certain point. And Maddie's got a media player with certain tracks on it that she uses when she goes to sleep. But they're not generally allowed to have their headphones in the. In the communal part of the house. [01:01:07] Speaker B: Yeah. We try and discourage that because you don't want everybody just walking around no zoned out. It's bad enough when I do it at the end of a workout or a walk or whatever, and I just carry on listening to a book. And you sort of. [01:01:20] Speaker A: Yeah, my semaphore flags out. [01:01:22] Speaker B: Stop. [01:01:23] Speaker A: Can I send you a message? [01:01:24] Speaker B: Sometimes I do it as to. As a signal. Don't interrupt me. I'm going from thing to thing here. You know, I'm moving through rooms. I'll keep my earbuds in. But. Yeah, you're right. I. Yeah. So it's a mix of things. It's a good. But it's an ordering of the goods. And also. Yeah, there is filtering of sorts. We have a rule about explicit songs, and they know that rule. Even our youngest, they will see the e and they don't touch it. That's one of the great things about Spotify. [01:01:46] Speaker A: And if they know dad's got one, like a fridge in the car, and one of those starts, they'll go, dad, this one's got a swear word in it. [01:01:52] Speaker B: This got a swear in it? Yeah. And you're like, oh, yeah. And you got to remember to lead by example in that way. Yeah, that's. I guess that's how we handle it. Music is a good. You should celebrate it. If you can play an instrument, great. Even better. But, you know, everyone can still engage with music. It's a beautiful sort of food of the soul. So, yeah, we should have it number three. And this is an interesting one, and it's based on this meme that's been doing the rounds the last couple of weeks. Should we be disciplining our girls for being bossy, or should we celebrate it as a leadership skill? And I've actually included the image here so we could talk about it because there's various versions of this, but this is the one that's been doing the rounds lately. And it's a quote from Cheryl Sandberg. She's married to Mark Zuckerberg, CEO of she isn't she? The birds? Yeah. He's undergone a journey lately. I don't know if you've seen that. He's been doing mixed martial arts. [01:02:48] Speaker A: Wow. [01:02:48] Speaker B: He's put on some beef. He's discovering that he's actually got to engage with the world in a bit more of a tangible, bodily way as a man. It's quite interesting, you see. But anyway, this is a quote from Sheryl Sandberg. There's a lady holding up a book and she's pointing to the quote, like, yeah, this is awesome. I want every little girl who's told she's bossy to be told instead that she has leadership skills. And that's the Sheryl Sandberg quote. So the question is, should we be disciplining our girls for being bossy, or should we celebrate it as a leadership skill? [01:03:17] Speaker A: I've got opinions on this. [01:03:18] Speaker B: Yeah. I say, have I? But I want to hear yours first. [01:03:21] Speaker A: Speaking as a parent of the female persuasion of a bossy girl. [01:03:28] Speaker B: Yes. [01:03:29] Speaker A: I wouldn't classify any of our other girls as bossy, but our youngest, I definitely would. [01:03:33] Speaker B: She has a bit of bossy. [01:03:34] Speaker A: She also has been infected by the sassy virus, according to some of her friends at school. Is that what they said? It's a while ago now, but she's never forgotten it. The sassy virus. You've got the sassy virus. I think there's a difference between being a bossy girl and being a girl boss. [01:03:48] Speaker B: Oh, yeah? That's interesting. [01:03:50] Speaker A: I've been thinking about this. [01:03:51] Speaker B: I don't like the girl boss because it's ruining movies and television. [01:03:55] Speaker A: Oh, yeah, fair enough. But I feel like in terms of, like, let's reclaim it, you know, like, yeah, like, you can be. [01:04:01] Speaker B: So do you think girl boss is positive? Is that what you're saying? [01:04:03] Speaker A: I think we can make it positive. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Because to me, and I've seen this time and time again where girls are of a certain age, certainly sort of between eight and eleven are bossy, naturally. All want to be in charge. All want to dictate what everybody does. And they all. [01:04:24] Speaker B: At Alan Moore's party just recently, when they all got together and there were 15 of them, I was like, wolses. [01:04:30] Speaker A: They'Re all trying to be in charge. And she was upset because she was in charge of the party, because it was her party, which, you know, to be fair, it was. Yeah, I think they sort of attract each other as well. They're kind of like little bossy magnets. [01:04:42] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:04:42] Speaker A: But then they're pushing each other away. It's all bad things happening. I do think sometimes that bossiness gets rewarded as leadership, and I think that's wrong, because bossiness is not loving. [01:04:56] Speaker B: No. [01:04:56] Speaker A: Right. It's wanting to be in charge. And it's the me first philosophy and the, yeah, I'm in charge of this thing. I'm gonna make what I want to happen happen. And you do what you're told or you're out. Right. And it can actually verge on bullying. So, yes, we should discipline it. What the difference is is that the girls that are bossy probably do have some leadership skills, but they need to be refined. So you can't just say you're not bossy, you're a leader. You actually have to say, you've got some really good leadership skills, but the way you interact with other people is not helping you to be a good leader. [01:05:37] Speaker B: That's a good way of putting it, I would say. And I think you've really probably hit the nail on the heads. But, yes, we should be disciplining our girls because bossiness is not a leadership skill. It's absolutely not. And I think this is something important to understand as well. In all of this, boys and girls are different, men and women are different. And so men, they don't tend towards the bossiness. They tend towards the physical aggressiveness because they've got the physical strength. Woman and or younger girls who don't generally have the physical strength, they tend to resort to emotional exertion or aggressiveness, and that's what bossiness is. Now, there are boys who will be bossy and girls who will be physically aggressive as well. It's not, you know, binary all the time, but generally speaking. And so you've got to understand, just like with boys, you wouldn't see them being aggressive and say, yes, I celebrate your leadership, son. You'd say, no, pull your head in. That's not how you treat other people. The same is true with bossiness. It is just nonsense to say that you've got leadership skills. In fact, that would be, ironically, when I think of someone like Sheryl Sandberg saying this, I worry and I think, oh, dear. Another typical sort of managerial class type leader who thinks that just dominating other people is leadership. And you think, what was, you know, what would that be like to be under her as a boss? If she's like, you either get on board or get out, you know, it's like, that's not leadership at all. Leadership is about empowering others. It's about leading people closer into goodness, truth, and beauty. And it always, always begins with self leadership. And if your daughter doesn't have self leadership, she ain't ever gonna be a leader. Same with your son. If he doesn't have self leadership, and that's self mastery, and he's just an aggressive bloomin tyrant. He's never gonna be a leader. He's gonna be a bully who intimidates people into his team and to his pathway and his way of doing things. But people are not gonna flourish. [01:07:32] Speaker A: No, we all know we've all probably had those managers that we haven't wanted to follow because of the way they've treated us or talked, talked to us or. [01:07:42] Speaker B: Yeah, I think what it is, this is a strange manifestation. They wouldn't understand it as such, but it really is a strange sort of feminine manifestation of Friedrich Nietzsche, Friedrich nietzschean sort of philosophy around the Ubermensch, the strongman, the overman. And he had this philosophy. He attacked Christianity, hated it, thought Christianity was not just something he disagreed with, but he thought it was morally repugnant because it held society back, because it has this obsessive focus. Sorry. In his mind, on mercy and compassion, and he says, of course you care about mercy and compassion. That's because you're a slave, and all slaves want mercy and compassion. But if you were the master, you wouldn't care about mercy and compassion, and the master is in the better position. So we should have this strongman approach, and this is a manifestation of that. And it was actually Simone de Beauvoir, who's the sort of founding mother of feminism, modern feminism, french woman. And she, in fact, enunciated this very thing that, no, it's not giving life that makes women valuable. That's not what matters. It's the ability to kill and dominate, have strength like men do. That's what. And so she sees motherhood as a curse and a burden. And there's a bit of this coming out in this. This whole idea of being bossy, being the strong woman is what makes you great leads people forward. No, that's not true. I mean, sure, you could be the nazi school mom if you want, but I'm telling you right now, no one's going to appreciate that and they're not going to flourish under it. [01:09:07] Speaker A: No, that's right. I think it's part of that whole reframing that seems to happen at the moment. We reframe all the negative as good without actually addressing and saying, well, you actually need to stop being like that. [01:09:20] Speaker B: Yeah, there is a virtue, and you're not practicing when you do that. [01:09:23] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. [01:09:24] Speaker B: It's because we don't have virtue. We don't have objective. We have values, and values are subjective. Well, my values are that training people to be bossy is a good thing. [01:09:33] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. [01:09:33] Speaker B: And it's like, yeah, but that's not virtue. [01:09:34] Speaker A: We're just not allowed to call it bossy anymore. No, it is bossy, but we don't call it that. Which sounds like lots of other things at the moment. [01:09:41] Speaker B: Well, that's the moral relativism and subjectivism. Yeah. So values are subjective. They can be whatever you want them to be, but virtues can't. Virtues are objective. What is the virtue of love, of compassion, of mercy and what is not? You can clearly make a distinction, you can differentiate, but you can't. And so they get into this sort of manner. [01:09:58] Speaker A: And I think at the heart of leadership, true leadership, is service. Right. Willingness to serve. And people recognize that when they see it, whether they can name it or not. Embossiness is the opposite of that. [01:10:09] Speaker B: It's not even assertiveness like a leader. [01:10:12] Speaker A: Assertiveness is. Yeah. [01:10:13] Speaker B: The best leaders that I've had are the people who just quietly display this profound strength of they role model. And they do. [01:10:23] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:10:24] Speaker B: And then you go, it's so overwhelming, they don't even say a word. You just go, oh, gosh, I know I have to do what they've done. [01:10:30] Speaker A: It just, you know, that Mother Teresa quote just to bring her back into the comment section. Spread the love of God. When necessary, use action. Use words. [01:10:39] Speaker B: Yeah. And often misattributed to St. Francis often, too. Is it really preach the gospel, but if necessary, use words. He never said that. [01:10:46] Speaker A: No. [01:10:47] Speaker B: How did he did preach the gospel? He went into muslim held lands and got really upset when he came home alive because he wanted to either convert Muslims, which he wasn't able to do, was captured. And he had a great debate, theological debate, with an iman who was very impressed. Gave him a dagger as a gift and he came home gutted because he either wanted to convert Muslims to Christianity or die a martyr so that there would be conversion in the muslim land. So yeah, but yeah, there is a truth still there that, you know, words and deeds. Yeah, your, your living of the gospel must be embodied and leadership has to be embodied as well. That's right, sitting from your little throne. Do what I want you to do right now because I'm a leader. So yeah, Katie, that's another episode. [01:11:26] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:11:27] Speaker B: Good, well rounded. [01:11:28] Speaker A: Good job us. [01:11:28] Speaker B: Just over an hour or so, folks. It was great to be back with you again. Don't forget patreon.com left foot media the link is in today's show notes. If you want to support us or lifenet.org dot nz and you can become a donor. That way you can make a one off donation to our bank account if you want to, whatever you want. If you're appreciating it and you just think, oh, I'd like to throw a few coins in the coffers. Every little bit helps. So thank you. And a huge thank you to all of our patrons and donors. It's thanks to you that we can keep doing this work and keep assisting others on the journey. We don't profess to be gurus or perfect, but if we can share and help, then yeah, why wouldn't we? Also, if you want to have questions answered, you can send them anytime. Go to the littleflockpodcast.org dot. That's the littleflockpodcast.org. the link is in the show notes or lifenet.org dot nz and at the top of both those pages you'll see a click on link to fill out a form and send us your question. You can do that totally anonymously. Topics you'd like us to talk about as well. I think that's all we're going to say. Caddy, isn't it? [01:12:26] Speaker A: I think that's enough for one day. [01:12:28] Speaker B: Another month. We're actually heading away to Aussie soon. We're going to be a couple of conferences to speak at over the year, but also we're going to be taking a couple of days between the conferences just to actually celebrate our 20th wedding anniversary that happened in May. So we can stop and yeah, it'd be good. I'm looking forward to that. So we'll probably have stories to tell. [01:12:47] Speaker A: We will. [01:12:48] Speaker B: We will go on a bold adventure and come back with noble tales, lots. [01:12:51] Speaker A: Of moments of goodness, truth and beauty, and also all the moments where we couldn't decide where to eat and got really hungry and angry at each other. [01:12:57] Speaker B: Last time, what, seven years ago, every. [01:13:00] Speaker A: Single time we go, what do you want? [01:13:03] Speaker B: We went to Sydney. We were in Sydney. I was doing work over there. Katie came with me. And then on the Saturday night and we were like. We walked around Sydney central for an hour. [01:13:13] Speaker A: Italian. But I wanted Italian. Italian. And Brendan wanted, like, pretend Italian. [01:13:17] Speaker B: No, I didn't even know what I wanted was the problem. That was, you know, you get so hungry, you don't know what you wanted. Should have had a burger somewhere. And then we went to. We did go proper italian. [01:13:26] Speaker A: We did. [01:13:27] Speaker B: The pizza was italian. [01:13:29] Speaker A: You weren't happy about it. [01:13:30] Speaker B: It was like, that's proper italian, yeah. No, skinny pizza. And it was okay. I had a couple of bits. And then what did I do? Those homeless guys in Sydney on the way back to our hotel, they had the best feed of their lives because I had a big doggy box and I gave it to them. They were like. They couldn't believe it. [01:13:45] Speaker A: They were quite happy with their anemic pizza. [01:13:47] Speaker B: Yeah, they loved it. I was like, enjoy, guys, and had a chat to them and gave them this beautiful gift of pizza. So it all came at the end, but it was quite funny. An hour of madness and we were walking around like. We did massive. We're on the maps, right, looking for. Is this a restaurant? Will this work? It was air madness. We should have planned. [01:14:06] Speaker A: We need to plan. [01:14:06] Speaker B: But I think was that the night we were going to go to Jamie Oliver's kitchen, which I think is closed now. And where is it? Martin place, is it? Yeah. And. But the queue was so long, we had to abandon ship. So we're not waiting that long to get into his restaurant. [01:14:22] Speaker A: But anyway, in retrospect, we probably should have just waited. [01:14:25] Speaker B: Yeah. Would have been half an hour. Not an hour of madness and weeping and gnashing a tea. Can I say, though, that. Just be prepared, folks. Next month it'll be like the holiday slides at the Malone family. And this was us standing on the deck of the Titanic. [01:14:41] Speaker A: The west ones, where there's no people in the photos at all. [01:14:43] Speaker B: It's just like, here's 20 photographs of a rock. It was a lovely rock. It had great significance to us. Means nothing to you, but you're going to endure these 20 photographs. Yeah. So there will be probably plenty of conversational and themed stories, anecdotes. Yes. Next month. In the meantime, folks, thanks again for tuning in. Don't forget live, by goodness, truth and beauty, not by lies. And we'll see you next time on the little flock. [01:15:19] Speaker A: The little flock is a joint production of the Lifenet Charitable trust and left foot media. [01:15:23] Speaker B: If you enjoyed this show, then please help us to ensure that more of this great content keeps getting made by becoming a patron of the [email protected]. leftfootmedia thanks for listening. [01:15:35] Speaker A: See you next time on the little flop.