Men, Women, And The Mental Load

[00:00:06] Speaker A: Hi, my name is Katie Malone. [00:00:07] Speaker B: And I'm Brendan, the husband. [00:00:09] Speaker A: And you're listening to the Little Flock, the podcast that offers practical insights about living a counterculture of goodness, truth and beauty in a world of increasingly hostile secularism and indifference. [00:00:19] Speaker B: So if you're looking to learn from two imperfect followers of Christ about how to live like the wheat amongst the Darnell, this is definitely the podcast for you. Hi, everybody. Welcome along to another episode of the Little Flock. My name is Brendan. [00:00:36] Speaker A: My name's Katie. [00:00:37] Speaker B: And we're back after a long hiatus. I was overseas recently in Australia, Katie, and someone said to me, is that podcast or. [00:00:48] Speaker A: One of our fans asked you where. [00:00:50] Speaker B: So you know who you are. Thank you for listening. [00:00:52] Speaker A: Just for you. [00:00:53] Speaker B: But it's been a while, isn't it? Yeah, it's been. I'm just trying to think. The last. [00:00:58] Speaker A: I reckon it was pre Easter. [00:00:59] Speaker B: Yeah, it probably was, wasn't it? Because a lot's happened. It might have even been last year. [00:01:04] Speaker A: I thought we did one in Lent. No. [00:01:07] Speaker B: Maybe. Maybe you're right. I have to go back and check, but it's been a number of months now and life. [00:01:13] Speaker A: The whole flu season. [00:01:14] Speaker B: Life has been busy. Yeah. Hopefully a pretty bad flu season. [00:01:17] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:01:18] Speaker B: Over here in New Zealand, anyway. [00:01:19] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:01:22] Speaker B: And, yeah, there's been a lot going. I don't know about you, but it feels like this year has absolutely disappeared. [00:01:30] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:01:31] Speaker B: Like we're now. Someone. One of the kids the other night said, oh, it's 68 days. Alan was counting down till 2027. And I was like, what? Yeah, yeah. But it's. [00:01:39] Speaker A: It's like every morning I'm like, no, [00:01:41] Speaker B: there's these little human ticking clock reminders. Only 21 weeks till Christmas. Only 20 weeks till Christmas, you know. But, yeah, it's getting real. So a lot's happened. There's an election going on in New Zealand. How do you feel about that? [00:01:58] Speaker A: Undecided. [00:02:00] Speaker B: Yeah. It's crazy, isn't it? It's funny how I don't know about you, but I'm ready for it to be over, too. [00:02:05] Speaker A: Yeah, well, it won't be a bit. The thing is, I think part of it. So we know it won't be over before. Before Christmas. [00:02:11] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:02:11] Speaker A: Will we get a government for Christmas? Maybe. [00:02:14] Speaker B: Yeah. Who knows? I guess if it's the existing coalition, it might just carry on if there's not too much of a shift. Yeah. But if it's a new one, it'll take a bit longer. Or if there's more votes shared to the minor parties. They'll probably start squabbling over the goodies, won't they? [00:02:30] Speaker A: Be my best friend. Yeah, I'm not your best friend anymore. [00:02:33] Speaker B: It's funny. Hey, it's interesting with our kids now, they're a little bit older too. They have a sort of. All of them, it feels like this election are genuinely intrigued by the experience. [00:02:44] Speaker A: Yeah, there's definitely a conversation around that. Well, Eleanor's doing it at school, so that helps. She's kind of. [00:02:49] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:02:49] Speaker A: You're starting to understand it with Lucy voting for the first time. [00:02:52] Speaker B: Yeah, that's right, yeah. And then Nathaniel couldn't care less, but he's got a sense of who he wants and in government, you know, and. And. Whereas that's last year. Last year, Last time. Thank goodness it's not every year. [00:03:04] Speaker A: Mm. Every three years. [00:03:06] Speaker B: But, yeah, last time there was just. Most of them were too young to sort of really grasp the gravity of it. So that's. [00:03:12] Speaker A: Remember that time a few elections ago where we went and we took turns voting in the primary school? [00:03:16] Speaker B: Oh, yeah. [00:03:17] Speaker A: And when I came back to the car, one of the kids was like, [00:03:19] Speaker B: did you vote for Daddy? That's right. [00:03:22] Speaker A: Yeah, I do remember that. I was sort of aware that they kind of got it, but they pretty much didn't get it. [00:03:28] Speaker B: Oh, that's so funny. [00:03:30] Speaker A: I was like, I would have if I could have. [00:03:31] Speaker B: Oh, man. Thank you, folks, for tuning in. That was a great little intro, wasn't it? All about politics. Just what you tuned in for. I honestly, I'll be so grateful when it's over. Just this election cycle, for me has been nuts. Like, it feels like we've had more silly, menial, pointless media stories than ever before. Like, I saw one this morning about how they've been digging up documents and the documents have shown that the government, this is the current government, has changed its mind on something. So originally they were going to do X, but now they've come out with a new idea and I'm like, yeah, well, so what? Like, that's fine. That's what we want, isn't it? And why would I want to read a story about. You know, originally they're going to do X, but now they've said they're going to do Y, it's like, so what? [00:04:19] Speaker A: Like it's Y. Better. [00:04:21] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. And why is better? And so who cares? You know, it's just sort of. But. And also, we've been bombarded, it feels like, with more opinion polls than ever before. Now they always have opinion polling, but this election, it Feels like there's been one every couple of days. Yep. [00:04:37] Speaker A: To me it feels particular. They try and drive the narrative and. Yeah, or if everybody else is voting that way, I guess I'll vote that way as well. Cause I don't really know what I'm doing. And that, to me is a bit disingenuous. You know, in a media sway, not great. [00:04:51] Speaker B: But we'd love to hear your opinion. Speaking of opinion polls, so if you've got questions, topics you want us to cover, then please reach out to us. You can do that via LifeNet. That's LifeNet, all1word.org NZ and there's a scrolling banner you can click on on the homepage or we'll post a link in the show notes for this episode. Just click on that and chuck us a question if you've got a question or something you'd like us to explore. Or if you know our other social channels or emails, reach out to us that way. Also, just a huge thank you to our supporters. Thank you for enabling us to do this important work. And it's thanks to you that not just this episode, but all the offline stuff we do as well, all the presentations, all the events we run, all of that is helped by your support. If you're not a supporter and you're interested in supporting us, you can do that in a couple of ways. There's a substack called the Dispatchers. You can go there and you can become a paid subscriber if you want to, or you can, if you're living in New Zealand, you can make a contribution to our LifeNet bank account. And because we're a registered charity, you can claim it back on your tax, which is kind of helpful. Well, not all of it, but you can claim back one third. One third. So that's lifenet.org nz the details are there. Yes. Well, let's start by jumping straight in. And we're not gonna talk about politics, but we're gonna talk about something that I kind of feel is a little bit crazy. Let me read to you from this article. I won't give the headline because that'll give the game away, but let's read a bit of the story. A mother gave her daughter some tough love. We don't mind tough love, but I'm not sure about this tough love. I'm not even sure if this is love. By flying on holiday without her after the 21 year old. So her daughter's 21, forgot her passport. In a piece published on business insider, Sheryl McGuire recounted her decision to leave her daughter behind and go on holiday that the two of them had planned to take together. It's like the reverse. Home alone. I'm just gonna leave you home alone. Maguire and her daughter had planned to a trip. Sorry, To Turks and Quesos. [00:06:59] Speaker A: Is it? [00:07:00] Speaker B: Yeah, Caicos. It was meant to be a nostalgic trip where the duo would, among other things, recreate photos they had taken together on previous holidays. [00:07:08] Speaker A: So it was for Instagram. [00:07:10] Speaker B: Well, seems like it, doesn't it? That would have got a bit awkward, wouldn't it? You'd had to either do it alone or get strangers. Yeah. When her daughter realized she had left her passport in her New York apartment with no time to get it to Boston, where the two would fly out from, the mother faced a tough decision since this was a grand opening. A grand opening of what? I'm not sure. [00:07:33] Speaker A: I don't know. Yeah, I think it may be the resort or something. [00:07:35] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, it was. [00:07:36] Speaker A: If you read further on, there's a resort they've been going to since the daughter was one. [00:07:39] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah, maybe. [00:07:41] Speaker A: Or. [00:07:41] Speaker B: Yeah, like a grand opening of my suitcase when I got there. I don't know. Changing the trip plans wasn't an option. If it hadn't been tied to an event and it never explains what the event is, I probably would have rescheduled. She wrote in an essay, the mother said she felt bad about going without her for five minutes, by the sounds of it, especially since she was so excited to see all the changes to the resort she had been going to since she was only a year old. So, yeah, there you go. However, Maguire said she looked forward to the trip down memory lane, even if she had to do it alone. Oh, that's so weird. I suppose, you know. Yeah, I was upset until I got to my fifth shower, Don. I forgot all about her. She went on to explain that the daughter has a history of forgetting things and has worked on that in the past to some success, although clearly not this time. Maguire also said that the trip alone allowed her to connect with other travellers. Strangers. Oh, my gosh. And she eventually stopped feeling guilty about it. Like I said, with G and T, guilt's all gone. The essay made its way onto social media, where it generated a lot of debate. Not surprised. And now it's made its way into the media and it's a media story. [00:08:51] Speaker A: It's in the New Zealand Herald. [00:08:53] Speaker B: I mean, that's how they find stories, they go tuning through socials. But I thought, at the risk of, you know, unironically implicating ourselves and churning through socials for discussion points. There is something here that I think is intriguing and definitely worthy of a conversation between us. Do you think this is tough love or is it something else? [00:09:15] Speaker A: It is tough love, but it's also selfishness, isn't it? [00:09:18] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:09:18] Speaker A: Yeah. I can kind of understand her point of view if she was a bit annoyed at the daughter. I also think, are we so silly that we didn't get travel insurance? Like, could you not just rebook for. [00:09:30] Speaker B: Yeah, I would have. [00:09:31] Speaker A: Maybe they didn't, though. Is it kind of. Maybe it's not standard practice over there to. [00:09:36] Speaker B: It doesn't really explain. But you sort of do wonder whether even if the daughter had gone back and got the passport and then paid for another flight. [00:09:43] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:09:44] Speaker B: And they'd kept the flight home or something. [00:09:46] Speaker A: Yeah. She met her there later. [00:09:47] Speaker B: That feels like tough lovey said, well, you're going to have to pay me back or something. Yeah. But to. This feels like cruelty. [00:09:54] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:09:56] Speaker B: It's the emphasis on the tough. I'm sorry you forgot your passport. [00:10:00] Speaker A: Kind of sounds like that wasn't. It wasn't an option, right. To. You know, we'd assume out of charity that maybe it wasn't an option to change flights or something. But it does seem weird to. [00:10:08] Speaker B: Well, yeah, she. Because she said it wasn't that they couldn't change flights. She says in the opening she didn't want to reschedule because of the opening and if it hadn't been tied to that, she would have just rescheduled. [00:10:18] Speaker A: And I was like, different if it was a wedding or something. But. Yeah. [00:10:21] Speaker B: Yeah. And I'm like, it's not clear what that means, but to me that just doesn't sound. It sounds so superficial. What would you do if you're in that situation? [00:10:30] Speaker A: I'll probably try and change the flights. Both of them, probably. Why would at least one. [00:10:34] Speaker B: Can you imagine going alone without a child and then a trip that was about the two of you and then going on your own and going, well, that's great. I got to. [00:10:41] Speaker A: It doesn't sound like they're missing out on the old overseas trip, though, does it? I mean, sort of sounds like there's a bit of entitlement going on there. Of like, well, we did this, we did this, we did this. Since you were one. [00:10:50] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:10:51] Speaker D: Yeah. [00:10:51] Speaker B: Are you true. [00:10:52] Speaker A: You know, I've done it every year since she's one. [00:10:55] Speaker B: There was something that was intriguing to me was no mention of where dad was. I'm assuming Dad's not there. [00:11:01] Speaker A: Relevant to the scene. [00:11:01] Speaker B: Yeah, he might not be on the scene at all, which is a great tragedy. Or maybe he just doesn't go on these trips or something. [00:11:09] Speaker A: I don't want to get involved. [00:11:11] Speaker B: Maybe. So just don't mention my name in this. But, yeah, it's a whole nother thing, too, to write an essay about it. [00:11:18] Speaker A: Yeah, that's. [00:11:19] Speaker B: Yeah, it's weird, isn't it? [00:11:21] Speaker A: It's like those. Am I the word we can't say on the podcast? You know, all those posts and they pop up on my Facebook all the time, and half of them sound like they're made up. [00:11:29] Speaker B: Am I the bad guy? [00:11:30] Speaker A: Yeah. Am I the bad guy? Am I the mean person? [00:11:32] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:11:32] Speaker D: Yeah. [00:11:33] Speaker B: Am I the naughty person? [00:11:34] Speaker A: And then half of them sound made up, and it's all written for drama and clicks and. [00:11:38] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:11:38] Speaker A: You know, like. [00:11:39] Speaker B: But this one was an actual essay that she published, so I don't know much about this woman, but I'm assuming she might be a regular writer there. [00:11:46] Speaker A: Or maybe it was on Business Insider. I was like, what's that got to do with. [00:11:49] Speaker B: Well, maybe she is, like, maybe none of your business. So maybe she's a business writer. She's. She's Mrs. Business, you know? What is it, the Lego Matt man movie? Mr. Business. You know, I guess there's other things [00:12:01] Speaker A: taken into account, like, you know, there's less annual leave in the States and, [00:12:04] Speaker B: oh, I don't know, 4 hours, 12 hours. [00:12:08] Speaker A: Yeah. But who knows? Maybe it was too expensive to rebook. [00:12:11] Speaker B: Ah, no. Well, that's not what she said. If she said that, you might have had some sympathy for her. [00:12:15] Speaker A: Yeah, there wasn't a lot of context given. Just. I did this thing, and I don't feel bad about it anymore. Yeah, I did to start with, but now I don't. [00:12:21] Speaker B: I. I couldn't leave my child behind. I just couldn't do that. I just think, even at 21, like. Because I. I can imagine my own scenario. You know how blooming anal I am. Whenever I travel overseas to Australia, I'm always. I double check my passport, and the last thing I do is I put everything in the boot. And I know it's already in there, but one last check. I always just open up the bag and check, and then I get in the car. [00:12:46] Speaker A: We have left passports behind before. Yes. [00:12:49] Speaker B: We had to go back, didn't we? [00:12:50] Speaker A: Yeah, but we weren't far from. [00:12:51] Speaker B: And so we're adults and we just [00:12:52] Speaker A: sneak back because we don't want little baby children to see Us coming, but Mum had to meet us at the end of the driveway or something. That's right. So we already said goodbye and we weren't doing that whole thing again. [00:13:01] Speaker B: That's right, yeah. And we're adults and we're very highly organised, so I'm like. I can understand how someone could actually forget a passport in the busyness and madness of travelling. [00:13:14] Speaker A: And so as you go from New York to Boston. Yeah. [00:13:17] Speaker B: I'd lean on the loving my child more than. [00:13:19] Speaker A: Have you not seen any of those, like, airport UK programs where they're like. They think they can travel without passports? Those are great. Where they're like, what? [00:13:27] Speaker B: But imagine being an adult. [00:13:29] Speaker A: I can't fly to Spain without my passport. What do you mean? [00:13:32] Speaker B: Imagine being an adult, though, and just sort of thinking that, like. I mean, it's like, maybe New Zealand's a bit different because we just know [00:13:39] Speaker A: that if you're to leave the country. [00:13:41] Speaker B: Yeah, most of the time. Yeah. No, in fact, there's only one time where you're crossing an ocean. Well, maybe two, but one main time, and that's the Cook Strait and going between the islands. But other than that, you know that if you are. As soon as you're hitting a body of water, you need a passport. But. So maybe they. They just don't think about that. But that. [00:13:59] Speaker A: No, but she'd been going since she was 1, so she knew she needed a passport. Like, that's not. [00:14:05] Speaker B: Trust me, bro. Trust me. What if. What if I leave you a bank card instead? Put on driver's license, a bit of paper. That is gold. [00:14:14] Speaker A: Yeah. I've literally seen. Try to hand over their watch. I'll leave my watch here with you. [00:14:18] Speaker B: So they do that on the. That's the people in the UK side before they've left. [00:14:22] Speaker A: No, that's people in the uk, the very entire. [00:14:23] Speaker B: Yeah, but that's what I mean. Before they've left the uk. [00:14:25] Speaker A: Well, I don't know. Yeah, it was just weird. [00:14:27] Speaker B: Can you imagine arriving in a foreign country? [00:14:30] Speaker A: My watch with those guys. Trust, bro. [00:14:32] Speaker B: I've got a wallet. I can give you that. What about an ipod? There was a story in the paper. Did you see that yesterday? About the guy who. The new Western Sydney airport has opened and he misunderstood. He thought he was going to Western Australia and he booked a flight to Western Sydney instead. [00:14:49] Speaker A: From. [00:14:50] Speaker B: I think it must have been from New Zealand maybe. And I'm not sure if he was a foreigner traveling through New Zealand, but he ended up. He lands in Western Sydney and realises this is not Western. I'm supposed to be in Perth. [00:15:01] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:15:03] Speaker B: So, yeah, not quite. Passport, entitlement. [00:15:05] Speaker A: I do know someone who confused the Washingtons one time. [00:15:08] Speaker B: Oh, yes, yes. I'm familiar with that story as well. Washington, dc, Washington, Seattle. Seattle, America or somewhere. Got that one wrong. They'd probably accept your gold watch as well. Yeah. So what. What would. Imagine coming home, though, from that little. [00:15:28] Speaker A: It's an awkward Christmas. [00:15:29] Speaker B: Imagine that. [00:15:30] Speaker A: Like you, I. I brought you this gift. [00:15:33] Speaker B: Yeah. Oh, here's a. I recreated the photos, darling. [00:15:37] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:15:38] Speaker B: Here's Leon. I met him because she said she made friends with. Here's Angie. She was from the uk. She got in with a go watch. Yeah, I. If you were a daughter, would you get over there? I don't know. It would. [00:15:54] Speaker A: That would be love outside the realm of possibility. [00:15:56] Speaker B: I don't. You're training your child for selfishness, surely. [00:16:00] Speaker A: Well, you. You'd think she'd probably just start going everywhere with her passport, just in case. [00:16:05] Speaker B: Yeah, there's a. There's a. Like, I think you'd probably be. You would be, I think, wounding them. And I. I just don't. I can't imagine my parents did that to me. I can't imagine that I would actually be able to just get away from it. I would either. It would just probably break something in the relationship or I would put up this massive emotional wall to escape from it, you know what I mean? And either way, it would be just hugely damaging to me and then probably to the relationship as well. It's quite. This is kind of interesting because I think that tough love phrase, it's important because we. We practice tough love, eh? Or we try to. It's hard when you love because you often want to just go, okay, I feel sorry for you. Have another scoop of ice cream then. Even though you weren't supposed to be getting any pudding. But. But. So we do try to practice tough love, but it does seem at times that's now becoming a bit of a excuse in some sectors of society. So I've read a few articles lately about really, really wealthy celebrities and elite type people who have worked their bones off, or like Sting in the case of Sting, sold however many albums and made millions and tens of millions. And they have said, I'm not gonna leave a single cent to any of my children. [00:17:27] Speaker A: Oh, right. So we're going to some favorite charity. [00:17:29] Speaker B: Yeah. And then they say this is tough love because I'm helping them to stand on their own two feet. And initially you could be sucked in by that. But I think that's an absolute lie. Because I think, first of all, your job as a parent is to actually provide for your children. And so if you are privileged enough to have earned an amount of money that no one else can or most other people only dream of, then I think you do have some obligation. You might not give the whole lot to them, but you do have an obligation, I think, to provide for your own family. Because, you know, there was a scripture on the weekend, the gospel passage. If you can't love your brother whom you see in front of you, then how will you love God? You don't see it. And I think if it's sort of a version of that, in my mind would be, if you can't love your own flesh and blood, then how can you really love a stranger? Do you know what I mean? But also an actual fact, when you think about that whole idea of this is being presented as some form of, you know, this is tough love parenting. Yeah, yeah, yeah. [00:18:33] Speaker A: Parenting philosophy. [00:18:34] Speaker B: There's good parenting. In actual fact, you think, well, hold on a minute. Probably in most of those cases, your family would have had to have put up with you. [00:18:41] Speaker A: That's right. [00:18:41] Speaker B: Being away. If you sting making all that money and sacrificing family time, and then you just sort of turn around and say, [00:18:49] Speaker A: ah, to the monkeys or something. [00:18:52] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. And then to try and cloak that in tough love, I just. I. It's a really. I read an article about it a couple of years years ago. Great piece of commentary with the guys pointing out this is a very, very, very new phenomenon and it is absolutely abnormal. And we shouldn't ever actually think of it as good because in actual fact, traditionally everyone understood that if you did have generational wealth that was supposed to be passed on, and then your children were supposed to be virtuous, sort of stewards of that. [00:19:19] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:19:20] Speaker B: You know, to help others. So let your children be the philanthropists, basically. But, yeah, tough love, tough luck. You're on your own. You're on your own, kid. See you when I get back from holiday. Alrighty. So that music means that it's time for our moment of goodness. Truth or beauty. Katie, would you like to go first as the lady of the house? [00:19:57] Speaker A: How generous. [00:19:58] Speaker B: It's your birthday tomorrow, too, so I don't tell Everybody. Yeah, sorry, 22. It's okay. [00:20:02] Speaker D: That. [00:20:03] Speaker B: Sorry, sorry. Never say a ladies age out loud. What's your moment of goodness? [00:20:06] Speaker A: Truth. I have to think about this one because, you know, it's been some time since we've recorded a podcast, but it's quite recent. It's when. So our son Nathaniel is in the air cadets. [00:20:15] Speaker B: He is indeed. [00:20:16] Speaker A: He wants to be in the army cadets because he wants to join the army, but we made him do the air cadets because it's closer to home [00:20:21] Speaker B: and he's loving it. [00:20:22] Speaker A: It's worked out well. [00:20:22] Speaker D: Yeah. [00:20:24] Speaker A: And he had his first flying day the other weekend and it was. So they get. They get dropped off at 8:30 and they do some theory and some lessons and then they get to go up in a little. I sits a microlite, he sets a microlight. You said it was something else. [00:20:39] Speaker B: I think it's a trainer plane, but [00:20:40] Speaker A: I've got a baby plane. Plane for babies. Baby plane. So a couple of the guys from the air club out here come out and basically teach them how to fly, which is super cool. And he rang me after he flew and he. And it was a beautiful day. It was clear skies and he was absolutely on cloud nine. Not anymore. He was on the ground, but he was on cloud nine. Yeah. [00:20:59] Speaker B: He had to ring me. I was driving back from Kakura. No, from Blenheim. And I was in Kakura. And. Yeah. He was so stoked. [00:21:06] Speaker A: I ring dad. I'm going to ring dad and tell him. Yeah, yeah. He said, I took off. I did a touch and go. I landed the plane. I did zero. No, that was on purpose. [00:21:16] Speaker B: Well, I think. [00:21:17] Speaker A: I don't actually know if it was zero GS, but he said it was. [00:21:19] Speaker B: Well, they left that to lift down the seat because I think he pulled the yoke too far. Anyway. [00:21:24] Speaker A: Anyway, he had time of his life. Now wants to learn how to fly a plane, be a part of his pilot's license. [00:21:30] Speaker B: The downside now is he's like, well, I want all these expensive. [00:21:32] Speaker A: Could I please have $1,000? [00:21:34] Speaker B: And we're like, no, son, we don't have to crush. We're on a ministry budget. Yeah. [00:21:38] Speaker A: You know, try not to crush his enthusiasm, but hopes and dreams of. I said, what's that for? He said, so I can just. I can fly a plane. [00:21:44] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:21:44] Speaker A: If I don't have to drive up to Blenheim, I can just fly there. So good to have goals. [00:21:50] Speaker B: Good on them. Yeah, exactly. [00:21:51] Speaker A: But it was super cool to hear that. I think it's something about having teenagers. It's quite special to start hearing their enthusiasm for. Yeah, that's true. For the things they enjoy and the things that are kind of in their niche. [00:22:02] Speaker B: Yeah. What a joy. What a joy. That's a good one. My one is a Little bit different to yours. I read Matthew McConaughey's book. It's like a memoir. It's not really a memoir memoir, but it's sort of partly memoir. And his thoughts on the world called Green Lights. And I had it on audible, so I listened to it and I thought, oh, it'll be interesting. But Matthew McConaughey, you know, he's an actor. He's, you know, the guy initially started his career with his shirt off half the time. And so I thought, yeah, we'll give it a go. And pretty quickly I realized actually, this guy has. There's a real sort of. He's got a writing gift and an artistic talent and he thinks deeply about the world. And there was one part where he talked about actually going to a monastery and he stayed with these monks in the desert because he realised he'd become a big star and, you know, he was making it now in Hollywood, but he was just caught up in all this hedonism and the drugs, the sex and the rock and roll, and he just realized that his whole life was diminishing through it, which is quite an amazing insight, particularly as younger. Most actors probably wouldn't have that. They'd sort of. They'd either go to rehab maybe and recalibrate, but they'd just carry on. He didn't want to carry on. So it was quite a beautiful story. He talks about going and meeting the monks and talking to them and spending time in a silent retreat with them and these Catholic monks and, you know, just sorting his life out, which was really interesting. So this sort of faith is interwoven through it. But what I want us now to do is just to listen to this clip. It's about three minutes where he's talking about the decision he made to get married. [00:23:42] Speaker A: Oh, yeah. [00:23:42] Speaker B: And he's living with his now wife, but they're living together. That's it. And they've got a couple of kids already. And then one of his sons confronts him about the last name situation. Like they notice something's with this. Our family doesn't feel like other families and. And it's just I. I found this so beautiful and it's such a great little theology and philosophy of marriage and a few other things as well. So I thought we'd listen to it and then have a. Have a chat about it afterwards. So let's see if this works. [00:24:16] Speaker D: November 7, 2011 why is it Mama McConaughey? My inquisitive 3 year old son Levi, asked me one day, well, what do you mean, I asked. Well, I'm Levi McConaughey. Vita's Vita McConaughey. But Mama is Camila Alves. Why doesn't she have our last name? I thought for a second. Because we're not married yet. Why not? He asked. If you're a parent, then you know that there are questions. Our children ask us that as soon as the words come out of their mouth, we know we better have a great answer. Because what we say next is going to be branded in their memories for life. This was one of those times. Well, it's a good question. I do want to marry Mama. I just don't feel the need to. If I marry Mama, I want to feel like I need to. I don't want to do it because that's what we're supposed to do or because I merely want to. I want to do it when that's what I need to do. Are you afraid to he asked another one of those questions. I was on the stand. Apparently my 3 year old son inherited my debating skills and cross examination capabilities. I thought again. Yeah, I guess I am a little bit afraid of what? He asked. Of losing myself, I said. The next day I went to my pastor. We talked about the sacrament of marriage and getting beyond my fears. He talked me about the mystery of marriage and how when two people who are meant to be together unite, the adventure of living side by side does not steal the individual's sense of self. Rather, it enlightens and informs it how, when two people come together to marry, they each arrive as one whole being. And in marriage we don't lose half ourselves. We become more of ourselves. Through this covenant with God and our spouse, we actually triple our existence and become three times what we were three entities wife, husband, and God. In unification, unanimous one times one equals three. A mystical multiplication. It takes courage and sacrifice, he said. Then he challenged me, what's the bigger risk for you, Matthew? Going on this adventure or continuing on the one you're on the dare? It got me thinking. I spent the next few weeks talking to my pastor, my brother, and successfully married men about it. Soon, for the first time in my life, I got the courage to look at marriage not as a final destination, rather as a new expedition, an affirmative and heartfelt choice to become more together with the woman I wanted to spend the rest of my life with and the only mother I wanted to be rocking with. On my 88th birthday, for the first time, I began seeing marriage as more than only a biblical and legislative sanction that I was supposed to feel Responsible for enacting marrying Camilla became something I needed to do. I bent my knee and proposed to her on Jesus's birthday in 2011. She said yes, but we didn't set a date for the ceremony. Note to self, you just live together. You live for the present, you marry, [00:27:46] Speaker B: you live for the future. [00:27:48] Speaker D: Lily Finni Zanuck so I love that. [00:27:51] Speaker B: There's so much contained in that. Like, even just the things like he went and sought wisdom and advice from wise counsel, and he knew to go to the church. And then he talks about talking to other married men. [00:28:03] Speaker A: Yeah, I like that. [00:28:04] Speaker B: Successfully married me. [00:28:05] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:28:06] Speaker B: There's. I don't know. Do you know who Carl Lentz is? He's an ex. Hillsong, I think it was New York. Hillsong pastor. He was like Justin Bieber's pastor. [00:28:16] Speaker A: Oh, yeah. [00:28:17] Speaker B: And they were hanging out together. Yeah. I mean, honestly, it was kind of a weird thing because often he'd be. It felt like he was just riding Bieber's coattails like that. People would go. Bieber would be at a dividend, he'd be there with him sort of thing. [00:28:28] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:28:29] Speaker B: And. And then he had a spectacular fall from grace when a couple of years ago, it comes out he's had affairs. [00:28:37] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:28:38] Speaker B: Well, he's popped up again in the last couple of days. He's popped up on social media doing the interviews with his wife. And guess what, they've got a whole new. I think it's a book they've written about marriage. And I'm like, he's the last person. [00:28:52] Speaker A: What we've learned from. [00:28:53] Speaker B: Yeah. And then he's doing it wrong. Yeah. And he's offering all these critiques to people who say things like, if you don't want infidelity, just don't be unfaithful. And I'm like, that's it. That's. That is it. That's. That is really it. And he's like, what a stupid thing to say. [00:29:06] Speaker A: Rah, rah. [00:29:06] Speaker B: I'm like, oh, my gosh. It's like, it's harder than that. I'm like, it's kind of not. You make a decision and you structure your life in such a way to support that decision or to make you vulnerable to the other one, you know, the evil. But anyway, like, that is the last guy you should be taking advice about marriage from, especially only a couple of years after multiple affairs. Maybe if he was 80. [00:29:28] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:29:28] Speaker B: And reminiscing and telling you. [00:29:30] Speaker A: Yeah, that's right. [00:29:31] Speaker B: Different. But what he did, Matthew McConaughey, he goes and talks to, yeah. Wise married people and gets advice. But he starts obviously with that classic thing that probably a lot of people find themselves and that they give themselves excuses for not getting married. [00:29:45] Speaker A: Yeah, that really interesting that I didn't need to get married. I'm like, you wanted to get married and just get married? Like, yeah, yeah. That's a really. For me, that's a really interesting distinction. Is that something as a man that you've. [00:29:58] Speaker B: No, no, it's a he. Yeah. Possibly for him, it's sort of, you know, how am I living my life? The reference to the rocking with. And the 88th birthday is about his own parents. [00:30:09] Speaker A: Oh, okay. And they actually quite a good example of marriage. [00:30:13] Speaker B: Well, yeah, it was a. It was a very. It was rough but beautiful in the sense that they. They would fight. But then they divorced and remarried three times. [00:30:26] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:30:27] Speaker B: So they died married, but they actually divorced and then remarried again and divorced and remarried again. And so. Yeah. So this whole idea of sort of need is part of his thing. [00:30:37] Speaker A: He sort of also says, it's not something I'm supposed to do. Like he's. It sounds like he was a bit rebellious against it being illegal or biblical. [00:30:44] Speaker B: Yes. Yeah. So I don't just. But it was interesting. You're right. So I understand someone saying, well, just because I should do it because everyone else is putting a pressure on me, but in actual fact, that's also not correct because in actual fact, a lot of things we do are social pressures. And the question is, is that social pressure good? So if the pressure is get married, then have kids, because society's doing that, your society is right and healthy. But if it's not, then yeah, you know, so. But there is a certain thing we say I should commit to it, but then the other one where he says I should want more than just wanting it. And I thought, yeah, that's interesting. I think philosophically, maybe at a deeper level there's a truth there that it shouldn't just be, I suppose, a wanton desire or a whim. Well, I want to do this. But what's interesting is at first I was a little bit intrigued by that myself. But then you realize after that three minute little monologue, he comes to the point of realizing that he actually needed it all along. His understanding of need was wrong. [00:31:49] Speaker A: Right? Yeah. Yeah. [00:31:50] Speaker B: You know. [00:31:50] Speaker A: Yep. [00:31:51] Speaker B: He realizes I actually do need this. [00:31:53] Speaker A: Yep. [00:31:54] Speaker B: Because I'm only half a person. [00:31:56] Speaker A: It makes me a better person. [00:31:57] Speaker B: And my. Our relationship. And especially that little quote at the end where he basically says we didn't set a date. And I love that because that. I've seen that happen with people. They get engaged and they just sit [00:32:07] Speaker A: there, stay there forever. Yeah. [00:32:08] Speaker B: And when what he actually says there, what he's saying is that little quote just spells it out really clearly. You're only living for today. If you do that. You're not living for the future until you actually get married. You're only living for the present. But. Yeah, and obviously having someone to actually challenge him was important and his kid was the right person to just love that. But where he's like, you know, there's those questions where, you know, the three [00:32:34] Speaker A: year old, but why. [00:32:35] Speaker B: Yeah. And then when the kid says, are you afraid? Yeah. Good on you, kid. That's awesome. You've done. I mean, that child has done something immeasurably profound for not just himself, but also for his parents. [00:32:53] Speaker A: Yeah. And his sister. [00:32:54] Speaker B: Yeah, and his sister. It's quite amazing, actually. But also that he gets that beautiful. Like this is a well known big time movie star and here he is writing this book. And in this book you hear this beautiful exposition. Pretty solid exposition. You could probably sort of critique one or two minor questions about it. Minor little things, but, you know, inconsequentially in the big scheme. But this beautiful exposition of the theology of what marriage is. [00:33:26] Speaker A: Yeah, beautiful. [00:33:27] Speaker B: It's about God. It's about the two becoming one. And you actually, there's multiplication of you as a person. There's flourishing. You don't lose yourself. And I just. I was so. Yeah, it was just beautiful. And it's particularly the source, I suppose, if you read it in a marriage book, Christian marriage, where you go, are you. Of course, of course, of course. But it shows. What I took away from it too, was a real sense of hope that even big time Hollywood types, they're not all superficial people. Some of them actually are thinking deeply. And probably all of them, in fact, you'd hope, are grappling with the big questions, even if they're coming to the wrong conclusions. But some of them in particular, like as Matthew McConaughey has shown here, they're actually not just grappling, but they. There's a real wisdom and a depth to his life and the insights. [00:34:19] Speaker A: It's interesting. I think it's that whole, like, even people that have quote, unquote, everything. [00:34:25] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:34:26] Speaker A: Are still looking for something more. Like something deeper and a bit beyond seeing beyond. Like in the Giver. [00:34:32] Speaker B: Yeah, that's, that's. [00:34:33] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:34:33] Speaker B: Lois, Larry's got. Yeah, yeah, that's Good. And that's. And that's really the story. It's interesting to say that because that's the story of his life, when you read the memoir is really right. From a young age, looking beyond and what becomes apparent is how his own family, the. The beautiful messy love and broken love of his parents, as broken as it was. But they always came back to love, which was good. They came back to the marriage and they died married, obviously, but also this. Just this profound ordinariness of their messy family life gave him the good start and the wisdom he needed. He tells stories about when he's younger and the tough love and all that sort of stuff. And it really did. He took that with him. He wasn't a Hollywood Nepo baby, you know, he took all that with him. It's the right kind of tough love. So, yeah, this, you know, really, really beautiful. What about your scripture passage? Do you have a. A scripture? She's grabbing her phone. Of course she does a scripture, does she? [00:35:32] Speaker A: I took a screenshot of last week when I was reading the readings for the day from Ephesians. Out of his infinite glory, may he give you the power through his spirit for your hidden self to go strong so that Christ may live in your hearts through faith. And then planted in love and built on love, you will, with all the saints, have strength to grasp, grasp the breadth and length, the height and the depth, until knowing the love of Christ, which is beyond all knowledge, you are filled with the utter fullness of God. [00:36:02] Speaker B: Interesting. [00:36:03] Speaker A: Really spoke to me because I've been thinking more and more about how, like, so much of being a Christian actually just comes back to love. [00:36:09] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:36:10] Speaker A: And also I love that bit about your hidden self because I think that's the bit of us that only God knows. [00:36:19] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:36:20] Speaker A: And then when we truly knows. [00:36:22] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:36:22] Speaker A: Yeah. And when we are planted in his love and built on his love, then we're filled with the fullness of God, which is love. [00:36:30] Speaker B: So it's all. [00:36:31] Speaker A: Yeah. It was just really that. [00:36:32] Speaker B: Yeah. That hidden self. It's interesting. I recently put together, spent some time preparing and creating a whole new. It can either be a single presentation or this. In this case, it was designed as like a retreat for a church group. And it was multiple presentations, split over a couple of presentations, unpacking the Lord's Prayer and the depth of it. And I start by going through those scripture verses before the Lord's Prayer where it says, you know, your Father knows your need before you do. And the point there is not just about your intercessions but he knows what you really need and what you really need. Often we can come to prayer with, often these things are good, but they can be distractions from our real need. So these great intercessions we've got, but still they're a distraction from recognizing our real need, which is actually the love of God. That's what we need. That is the greatest need above all others. And when you get that and that's. Yeah. That speaks to that, I think. Can you read that last little bit again towards the end? Because there's something there that struck me as interesting. [00:37:36] Speaker A: Knowing the love of Christ, which is beyond all knowledge, you are filled with the utter fullness of God. [00:37:41] Speaker B: And so he's sort of, he says it's beyond knowledge, but you can know it. [00:37:45] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:37:45] Speaker B: There's a beautiful paradox there that. [00:37:47] Speaker A: Yeah. But it is different kind of knowing because we know it in our hidden self, you know, that there's that real. Yeah. [00:37:53] Speaker B: And I also wonder if in the sense of knowing is, it's not, you don't have to. Our mere human intellect doesn't have to grasp. [00:38:03] Speaker A: Not a brain thing. [00:38:04] Speaker B: No, we just, there's, you almost really get that sense that here knowing is also trusting. I have a knowledge and a trust of this trust. Prof. You know, one of my kids was saying, yeah, Trust, you're a 13 [00:38:19] Speaker A: year old boy, everything's trust. Prof. Yeah, but this is, in this case, it's true. [00:38:23] Speaker B: Yeah, it's true. But it's that unknowable. And I also wonder, just as you're reading it, I thought, I wonder if part of that too is that we know the love of God because it is experienced through our fellow Christians who love like Jesus commands them to love. And they love us and we experience it there too. So that's the beautiful thing about Christianity and scriptures. It's not either or, it's both. And it is. And so there's that the either or one is you reduce it down to just brotherly love. And then there's no divine component and everything's just political and earthly. And then there's the other one where you just elevate everything into the divine. And there is no sort of communal or, you know, basic human involvement. It's, it's both ends. [00:39:08] Speaker A: God wants us to work out this love where he's placed us. [00:39:12] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:39:13] Speaker A: You know, which is oftentimes the hardest place to do it. [00:39:16] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:39:16] Speaker A: So for good reason, you know. [00:39:18] Speaker B: Yeah. And, and God is in all and through all. And, and so of course, if God is the source of all being who holds all things in existence, then God is going to be present. If he's present in our lives, he's going to be present through our love. So it's. Yeah, it's a lot wrapped up in that, isn't it? That's good scripture for me. I had Psalm 68, not the whole psalm. Everyone out there in podcast listening then is like, what? It's not the longest. The whole thing. No. But just four lines, actually, and they really struck me as important. Let those who hope in you. That's God. So let those who hope in God not be put to shame through Me, Lord of hosts, Let not those who seek you, God, be dismayed through me, God of Israel. And that's the first time I'd ever read that, actually. And I've read a lot of the Psalms and possibly I have, but not really grasped it before, but it really. I read it this time and I realized, like, for me personally, in my speaking engagements, that should be every public presenter's prayer. Should be every Christian minister's prayer. It should be every mum or dad, every Christian. Our podcast, you know, let those who hope in youn, O Lord, not be put to shame through us. [00:40:36] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:40:37] Speaker B: It's like man again. It goes back to that. Both. And we're part of, like, when. When Christ ascends to the Father at the Ascension, he leaves us with his mission. He says, here you go, you know, my really important mission, I'm now handing it off to you. And so, yeah, Lord, let us not get in the way. [00:40:53] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:40:54] Speaker B: Let us not be the stumbling block to those who actually seek you. [00:40:58] Speaker A: Do not lead any of these little ones astray. Yeah. [00:41:00] Speaker B: I mean, and you think, man, that's. And you know that scripture, Peter, you know, not many of you should presume to be teachers because you will be judged more harshly. I think about that, and I swear to God that a lot, because in my ministry work, I do a lot of public speaking, and I really do think about that a lot. But it's true of all of us. But if you're given a. If you're in a particularly different privileged position where you have a calling, that you're a good calling. [00:41:24] Speaker A: I think it's true of any Christian, though, if some people know you're a Christian. [00:41:27] Speaker B: Yes. [00:41:28] Speaker A: The onus is on you to behave like one. [00:41:30] Speaker C: Yep. [00:41:31] Speaker A: And to be. To stand out. And I don't mean that in like a, oh, I'm famous, I'm a Christian standout way. Like, yes, be a standout Christian, but people should notice that you're different even in the little things. Like, I remember one of my first jobs, people, somebody said to me, after about three months, you don't swear very much. Yep, that's right. [00:41:52] Speaker B: What the ruddy hell are you ruddy talking about? [00:41:54] Speaker A: I've really thought about it in that context and, like, it's jarring in an environment where lots of people do for someone not to. So sometimes it's not the things we do, it's the things we don't do. [00:42:05] Speaker B: Yes. You know, you should look and smell and feel different. [00:42:07] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:42:10] Speaker B: In that particular point, swearing is one quite powerful way. [00:42:14] Speaker D: Now. [00:42:15] Speaker B: It used to be different, but now I notice this. I'll be on planes with, you know, like, business people in suits and ties. These are not, you know, rough gangsters who've got on the plane and are swearing. Away we go. [00:42:26] Speaker D: Oh, yeah. [00:42:27] Speaker B: It's just they've had a bit of a rough life. These are top tier of society people and they're sitting on a plane in full volume with even sometimes families sitting around them and they're dropping. And these are women, too often woman and men, but even women who just dropping Eve bombs and stuff. And I'm thinking, man, our culture has degraded our politicians. [00:42:47] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. [00:42:47] Speaker B: Dropping C words and journalists. And so just not having a very minimal amount of swear words coming out of your mouth now is quite a powerful witness. Yeah. I mean, I think who it was, it was Pope Leo actually, a couple of weeks ago, who talked about one of the greatest scandals of our age is people whose lives do not conform to the Christianity they profess. It's one of the. One of the gravest errors and destroyers of missionary work. And, you know, our evangelism, not missionaries going overseas, but our evangelistic effort, the mission of the church we're all called to. So, yeah, man, challenging stuff. But I guess the other point for me too was thinking if you're in a privileged calling, you're absolutely right. Like, it's for everybody. [00:43:38] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:43:38] Speaker B: But if you have that extra part to your calling where, you know, you maybe do public speaking, we do a podcast or you do, or whatever, then in an age where people are probably more careless with their words than ever before, you really should be more careful. And I've really begun to feel the weight of that. Maybe I'm getting a bit older and wiser. It's finally sinking in. But, yeah. Thank you, Lord. Alrighty, Katie, we got one issue to discuss today. Bearing the mental load. We're going to watch a video and then we're going to Perhaps unpack it a little bit. This is a lady who's talking about the mental load. And yeah, she. It's like social media videos. [00:44:31] Speaker A: Got thoughts on the mental load? [00:44:33] Speaker B: Well, yeah, but it's social media videos where people just often they don't realize it, but they're hectoring you. They think they're giving you helpful advice, but they're sort of. It can be quite condescending. So. But it is sort of typically social media in that way. But it's interesting and I think it's worthy of our discussion because more people are now you see articles and all sorts of stuff, people talking about the mental load. So let's try and understand this. So let's watch this video clip together. [00:44:57] Speaker C: I love it when men tell me that the mental load isn't real because it gives me an opportunity to give them real life examples of the mental load. And there's a viral video that's going around right now that I think is the perfect example of the difference between doing a task and carrying the mental load for a task. And I think this is something that couples fight about all the time, right? A woman will come to her husband and say, I need you to help with the mental load. And he'll say, sure, babe, just tell me what to do and I'll do it. Or tell me what to cook for dinner and I'll cook it. Tell me what to buy at the grocery store, I'll buy it. And what they're not understanding is they're still asking her to carry the mental load. They're just doing the task for her. And those are two separate things. And so this video that's going viral is honestly, I like the video and I like the content this guy is creating. He creates videos where he shows boys how to do things. So one of his videos is like, teaching boys how to iron, teaching boys how to grocery shop, teaching boys how to make an appointment. So he's teaching young men and boys how to be adults. And I think that is valuable. And I think a lot of the lessons he's teaching are really interesting. Like, one of the things he said is like, okay, we're looking at the milk. Don't just grab the milk. Look at the expiration date. And I think that's amazing. I think it's great that he's teaching young boys this information. However, so many women have sent me these videos and they've said, he's so close to getting it right. Like, he's so close to teaching boys what it looks like to show up as a functioning partner, an equal partner, right? But he's missing the mental load portion because throughout the entire video, he starts off by saying, we're using a list our wife gave us. Our wife looked in the fridge, she looked in the pantry, and she wrote down what she needed, but she didn't write down brand or kind of cheese or any of those things, but she did give us a list. So it's our job to make sure that we get the right things so she doesn't nag us, essentially. So he's placing the woman in the position of being the nag, being accountable for the list, knowing what needs to be on the list, right? And that's the mental load. The mental load is this, like, never ending to do listen your brain of everything you need to know, do remember, plan for, anticipate, right? So it's knowing that you need to send school lunch four days next week. It's planning dinners for the week, knowing what groceries you have. Like knowing that one of your kids loves cheddar and one likes mozzarella. Like, it's just knowing all that information. It's being the person who knows what kind of milk you drink. And in the video, right, when we're talking about the milk, he says, okay, we're okay with the milk, but we don't get any milk, right? We have to get the right milk, but we don't know what the right milk is, so we have to call our wife and ask her. And that is the mental load, right? Knowing what kind of milk is in your fridge is the mental load. And he goes on to say that for a few different examples, he says, well, we can't just buy the apples. We need to buy the right apples. So we're going to call our wife. And he said, you're probably going to call your wife 10 times while you're here because we want to get it right. And I think this is the biggest difference between good men who think they are carrying their fair share and men who truly understand what the mental load is. Because the mental load is knowing what's in the fridge and the pantry at all times. If you ask me, I have a running inventory in my brain of every single thing that's in my fridge in my freezer. Like, everything. It's being the person who knows what your kids like to eat. It's being the person who does the meal prepping. It's being the person who knows what kind of milk your family drinks, right? And you have to assume that these men live in these homes and they can know all this information too, but they leave their partner to be in charge of it. And so while I. I love that he's teaching these boys how to show up, I really do wish we had more men who understood the mental load portion of it, who could teach boys that it's not only your job to buy the milk and check the list that she made, but it's your job to know what's in the fridge, what kind of milk your kids drink. It's your job to participate in those things. And that is how we build truly equal partnerships. [00:48:08] Speaker B: So one thing I'll say our listeners can't see this, but one thing I did pick up on is she does look young. I don't know her age and I. [00:48:20] Speaker A: Late 20s, early 30s. [00:48:22] Speaker D: Yeah. [00:48:22] Speaker B: I do wonder whether maybe her views might shift a little bit over time, but we'll get to that point. Is she correct, do you think? [00:48:31] Speaker A: She's absolutely correct about what the mental load is. [00:48:33] Speaker B: So you think that's. [00:48:34] Speaker A: As a woman, for me, the mental load is being the person that remembers all the things. [00:48:39] Speaker D: Yeah. [00:48:39] Speaker A: I have to remember all the appointments. I have to remember who likes what meat this week. [00:48:45] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:48:45] Speaker A: It's not even like all the time. It's like it changes the week. Yeah. [00:48:48] Speaker B: I don't like mints anymore. [00:48:50] Speaker A: And by the time you've caught up with what people like this week, it's changed for times. [00:48:53] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. [00:48:55] Speaker A: Exactly. But I don't necessarily think that that's men's fault or it just. It's part of being a woman is being details oriented and having a. Generally having quite a good memory for what other people. [00:49:09] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. It feels like nurturing to me. Like you have this awareness. [00:49:13] Speaker A: It's an innate kind of thing. Sometimes it feels heavy, like a low. A quote unquote load. [00:49:19] Speaker B: So you think that's an accurate description of the mental load? [00:49:22] Speaker A: Well, I don't think that's the whole mental load, but I think that she's. That's part of it, definitely. [00:49:26] Speaker B: That's interesting because to me, it's not talking about groceries. [00:49:28] Speaker A: I mean, do you want to talk about laundry? Because there's a mental lobe with that, too. [00:49:30] Speaker B: Yeah, there's a mental lobe with everything. [00:49:33] Speaker A: Right. [00:49:33] Speaker B: It sort of feels like. [00:49:35] Speaker A: I think for me, I've been thinking about this since I saw you'd put. I hadn't watched the video, but I thought that you'd put the top in it. And I've been thinking about it, and I think the thing for me with the mental load is that once you have a family and, you know, in the olden days, women would just stay home, not just women would be able to stay home more easily. People still can, but generally speaking, people need more than one income at the moment, especially New Zealand. And so a woman not only has to carry the family in the household, but also a job. [00:50:09] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:50:09] Speaker A: And so we're loading women up with so much stuff that where do they fit this other stuff? No wonder it has to live in their head and goes round and round because you're trying not to forget anything, not to drop any of these balls. And a man, to some extent, if he's working, if he's not the person that identifies as the primary caregiver, if he's working, generally his time is more his own. Generally speaking. I mean, it's a real generalization because I know, you know, we know men that do a lot and I think men do a lot more than they used to in the 1950s or whatever. [00:50:39] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:50:40] Speaker A: My own dad was a doer of. [00:50:41] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:50:42] Speaker A: Many things would come home and help. You know, it was definitely an equal partnership. So I don't think you can just offload the mental load the way she's talking about. I don't think that's possible. [00:50:54] Speaker B: No, no. In fact, I. That's one thing I picked up on was the more every time I've heard this, it sort of struck me this time really, in a big way, was. But hold on a minute. So let's say even if you had Monday was his mental load day, he had to know what was in the fridge. Tuesday was your day, you know, did that. Like, what would happen, I guarantee you, is you would have things start falling through cracks because someone has to actually carry the mental load with twice as [00:51:23] Speaker A: much milk and no cheese, you know. [00:51:24] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And actually, I don't like the fact that a bloke goes out and gets something and buys something and then has to ring and check with his wife. I don't think that's. [00:51:35] Speaker A: If you're going to give him a task, you've got to actually offload them and you've got to trust broth. Yeah, yeah. [00:51:40] Speaker B: And to me, this sounds like an unhealthy micromanagement. She wants it her way and because he doesn't understand her, her way of doing it. To me, if you're talking about an equal partnership, then the mental load then gets split to such a degree by. He can buy his own type of cheese if he wants to. Unless that cheese is something everyone's Allergic to. Do you know what I mean? Generally speaking, like. And it sounds like most of these things it would be okay, so what type of cheese? What type of milk? [00:52:03] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:52:04] Speaker B: Well, then otherwise you can't really complain or you like. So I think you've got to offload. That's the only way it's equal. Otherwise it's still one person who can hold the offload. [00:52:15] Speaker A: But you've also got to trust and you've got to just go, he's not going to remember everything because that's not how he's built. [00:52:20] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:52:21] Speaker A: You know, and I don't have a problem. I probably did. I think resentment can really grow in a marriage here. I really do. And there's definitely times I've fallen into it where I've been like, oh, why can't he just remember all of these things? I've told him 10 times and written in the diary and. But yeah, at the end of the day, it is what it is like. And you've got to lean into those [00:52:41] Speaker B: strengths and I've got to realise, like, I have these moments where I'm like, I have to stop and just remind myself in my typical male. My strengths and also my weaknesses, my typical maleness. I just have to sort of remind myself, yeah, okay. In actual fact, I've just got to stop and take a mental note to see her. Yeah, Katie's going, well, what I can do or. [00:53:02] Speaker A: Yeah, and that's great. Asking that where you can help it. But also then a wife or the, you know, female partner say, well, he's helped with this. He might not have done it how I like it or how I would have done it, but that's, oh, well, it's done. [00:53:18] Speaker B: Tough luck. [00:53:19] Speaker A: It's off my. [00:53:20] Speaker B: I'm not having to carry the luck. [00:53:21] Speaker A: You know, it's like the other night I mentioned to you that the windows. I was like, really nice if the windows were clean. [00:53:25] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:53:26] Speaker A: And then they were just done. [00:53:27] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:53:27] Speaker A: Like, that's off my list. I don't have to think about that anymore. You know, I think it's seeing those places where you can step in and you can help. But then on the flip side, also being the receiver of that and receiving it. [00:53:38] Speaker C: Well. [00:53:39] Speaker B: Yes. Yeah. It's interesting to me because I picked up something you were saying before and also you see it in that videos. I just. I wonder if too, this is a symptom of a cultural rod you've made for your own back. Because probably back in the day you'd just be told. Yeah. And not just that. But also everyone has to have their own little wants and whims satisfied. Back in the day, even when I was a kid. No, no, we're just having mints and you'll either eat it, you'll have nothing. Now we have this whole expectation in the therapy industry and the parenting gurus and everything say, no, no, no, no, no. It's best for you to cater to little Timmy and little Tammy and it's best for you take their sandwiches and cut them into shapes and. Oh, but Timmy doesn't like stars. Okay. He likes. [00:54:27] Speaker A: He wants squares and triangles. [00:54:29] Speaker B: Yeah. Or little men shapes. And so all of this mental load is put on you because you've created all of this complexity because you're trying to cater to individual wants. [00:54:40] Speaker A: Well, it's that social media thing as well of like so and so's lunchbox looks like this and. [00:54:44] Speaker B: Yep. [00:54:45] Speaker A: You know, like we can't just have normal looking lunchboxes anymore. We've got to have. Yeah, you've got to have all those special things, but you can't have wrappers because of environment. And you know, like there's so many. It does feel like there's so many boxes to tick. [00:54:57] Speaker B: Well, on that point, what's interesting is I just, I can't ever recall these types of videos being made by parents of children with disabilities. It feels like what I see from them often is we wish society would understand our children a bit better and would be a bit more understanding and. But what you don't tend to hear is the complaints about all. They just get on, it seems, you know, they're like. And they actually do carry a massive load and they do have children where there are unique differences and they can't just necessarily maybe eat what everyone else eats or go to places the way everyone else goes to places and all that. You know, like it's. Yeah. And. And it seems they don't. They just sort of get on with it. So I wonder if part of it is that we have. There's a sort of superficiality a little bit at times that we get caught up in and then maybe it makes us resentful or I don't know, we're not seeing enough of the real world. I mean, the mental load is real. It's definitely real. But the more I think about it, I think, well, I don't know how you can. You can't solution your way out of it. [00:56:03] Speaker A: No, you can't. I don't think you'd ever. [00:56:06] Speaker B: Someone has carry on. I don't think that's an awareness. [00:56:09] Speaker A: Yeah. Because I have to keep straight in my head when everybody needs to be where they need to be and when the appointments are and all of that. [00:56:17] Speaker B: So let's game this out of it. Let's game this out. We follow that. And then I start now appearing alongside you. And I'm carrying. Sometimes I'm carrying the mental load. But does that really lift your mental load? Because you're probably still thinking, I hope he remembered to get the cheese. Even though he says, I'm going to get the cheese, I'm going to get the apples. And, you know, he knows the right kind of apples. But even like. So he knows all the right products, he knows everyone's individual needs and what he should be buying. You're probably still going to go, I've got to double check. That's been done. [00:56:49] Speaker A: Well, yeah, if you're that worried about it, you will, I think. But that's where I think the letting go a little bit comes in. But. [00:56:54] Speaker B: But you know what I mean. I don't see how you can't have someone. It's kind of like captaining a ship. Someone has to. [00:57:01] Speaker A: Someone has to be the household manager. [00:57:02] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, someone. And it might be Mum or it might be dad, but someone has to do that. And then the other person works to their strengths in a different way. [00:57:12] Speaker A: I think if you're going just very stereotypical gender roles. What I was going back to what I was saying before about men being a little bit more free, like when it gets to me and when I start to let it get to me is when I think, oh, that's not fair. He can just get up and go, I'm doing this today, I'm doing that today. And my mental conversation is, where is everybody else today? What do they need? What needs to need to be fulfilled? What do we need from the supermarket? What appointments do we have? Who's getting where, how and when? And I'm the one that kind of has to do that. Mental jigsaw, mental puzzle. [00:57:46] Speaker B: See, to me, that's the mental load. I think that what she's describing. [00:57:50] Speaker A: Oh, she's given a very simplistic. [00:57:51] Speaker B: Yeah, I'm not sure. [00:57:53] Speaker A: Groceries. [00:57:53] Speaker B: What you're talking about there is the fact that as a mum, you often feel the weight of having to carry the nurturing. [00:58:00] Speaker A: I feel like I'm holding six other people in my brain all the time. And I feel like that's not the case for men. [00:58:08] Speaker B: Well, no, you're also probably holding a husband on your brain. [00:58:11] Speaker A: Oh, yeah, that's Why? I said six other people. You're one of them now. [00:58:13] Speaker B: And whereas a male. The question that really struck me as I wrote this down was, well, what about the mental load for men? Do men have a mental load? [00:58:21] Speaker A: Surely they do. [00:58:22] Speaker B: See, what I think is interesting here is she's got a very feminized outlook on the world and I think this is normal today. Most things are presented to us now, education, everything, social media, through a female lens. And then the expectation is males are supposed to just adapt to that. I don't think that's correct. I think it's good to understand that lens, but you also need to understand the male lens and then they work together, you know. And so the question is, well, this appears as if men have no mental load. [00:58:47] Speaker A: No mental load. [00:58:47] Speaker B: Just do as if mental load is only the female. [00:58:50] Speaker A: If I go to the gym again. [00:58:51] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. And okay, I get it. I know and I know there are so what you've already highlighted. I know I can be a bit obtuse at times and I can go, oh, well, I've got to just go and do this thing today. And you're like, hold on a minute, I've got all these other Saturday related [00:59:05] Speaker A: tasks that I told you about last week. [00:59:07] Speaker D: Yeah. [00:59:07] Speaker B: And here you are just sort of, it feels like you're just swanning off to go and do the dump run or whatever. And then I've, you know, I mean, [00:59:14] Speaker A: I'm glad you do that because I don't want to thank you for that. [00:59:17] Speaker B: But then, so there are. Or the men who go, well, I'm just off to the gym because I've got a day off and mum's like, hold on, I haven't got. [00:59:26] Speaker A: Or go play golf. [00:59:27] Speaker B: Yeah. Because I'm looking after all these young children here, you know, and you've just gone off play golf because you think, well, I've done my such a nice day off I go Saturday. So that's the thing, right? [00:59:37] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:59:38] Speaker B: But then the question is, I think if a husband is committed and he's faithful and he's genuinely a good man, he's going to carry a mental load as well. [00:59:47] Speaker A: Yeah, sure. But it's not that it's different. [00:59:49] Speaker B: It's different. He'll carry the load of providing for his family. He'll carry the load of have I been a good father? He'll. I often carry the mental load of have I done enough to actually or am I doing enough to nurture the faith in my children? Because that's one of my most important tasks of all. Have I done enough, particularly I think about with my son, to help him to be a good man of virtue, or am I failing in that? That's. And there's this mental load. One thing that men will notice. And if you're listening through mail, you'll know this. When your son gets into those teenage years, you really start to feel it then because they. They start to push against the boundaries and they're finding themselves and you really question your own parental sanity at times. Have I done enough as a father? And you worry about what's coming. And I really don't want to get a phone call saying that, you know, he's gotten a fight at the mall because he just was trying to prove himself to some silly idiots. You know what I mean? And so you're carrying all of that load, but I'm carrying that stuff too. Yes, but I think, as I said, there's a difference, that we have to [01:00:46] Speaker A: think about what kind of milk to buy as well. [01:00:47] Speaker B: Yeah. Well, woman, I think, Carrie, like you often told me you worry about you'll stay awake until our eldest daughter is home and things like that. But then there's other mental load that you wouldn't carry that I would carry around our son or around our kids and stuff like that. But it sort of feels like in this video that just doesn't seem to factor in at all. It's sort of like mental load is just at a. [01:01:09] Speaker A: She might only have young kids at the moment, maybe as well, because I think as they get older, the mental load changes. [01:01:14] Speaker D: Yeah. [01:01:14] Speaker A: You know, because now I can be like Lucy, go to the shops and get this. Or. [01:01:18] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:01:18] Speaker A: You know, the mental load is divided a wee bit as the kids get older. [01:01:21] Speaker B: I also wonder too if our social media and our pocket devices are creating a problem too, because we're not. We're not able to just sort of disconnect enough. We're so distracted constantly and that all that's doing is draining the limited grey matter we have to. To work with and the mental and [01:01:39] Speaker A: our connectivity, you know, like, I was just literally thinking this morning as I was hanging out the laundry, I need a week off life so I can admin my life, you know, Like, I can catch up on the emails, I can start buying Christmas presents, you know, like. But I need. I need all the other life to stop. No more life. Yeah. Like, I just need to go into a hole somewhere. [01:01:57] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:01:58] Speaker A: Somebody can post me think flat food under the door and I can just like. [01:02:01] Speaker B: Yeah, you, you were. It's funny, I was thinking about because I've really tried hard this year because the last couple of years I've just been overstressed myself. And really what typically should happen, and probably in most work settings is there's a bit of busyness, but you are still winding down into the end of the madness. But we're not. And we are involved with important ministry over the holiday break as well in January, so. But what I found is even this year I've been working a lot harder to try and to balance that all properly and not overdo it. I'm still finding here we are, oh [01:02:30] Speaker A: my gosh, things just pop up. [01:02:31] Speaker B: The year is coming to an end and it's just we're running out of time and the burden goes on, the pressure goes on. [01:02:36] Speaker A: Especially when Eleanor's like 62 days to a Christian. [01:02:42] Speaker B: Have a listen to this. This is a clip. I was going to say this is just a paragraph from a great little substack article that appeared in my inbox last night by a guy I quite like. But just this paragraph, just as we're talking, struck out to me. I remember this now, two decades after Steve Jobs broke the Internet by putting high speed democratic insanity in every American's pocket. So your phone. Obviously, everyone recognizes the great curse visited upon the human race in 2026. Each of us carries a cursed totem that drains our attention, fries our dopamine receptors, ruins our IRL relationships and real life relationships, and obliterates what remains of our community's social cohesion. Social media and the mobile revolution give us power and reach that were previously unimaginable. It freed up untold hours for productive use and made boredom a thing of the past. Still, the full cost of that technology was immeasurable. And I think this is part of it probably as well. We. Yeah, there's a sort of an expectation. And if you add to that too, perhaps the performative expectation that comes from social media. I've got to be a parent and be publicly. [01:03:50] Speaker A: Yeah. Oh, look, I can't be bothered sharing every facet of my life on social media. I don't have time for that. [01:03:57] Speaker B: No, no. I mean, I know even for you it's like, oh, another podcast episode is a bit of a challenge. Let alone. [01:04:03] Speaker A: I've talked to my husband for an hour. [01:04:04] Speaker B: You're becoming a tiktoker. [01:04:05] Speaker A: Schedule. It's the only time we have a conversation, guys, to schedule it. We haven't had one since before Easter and today. [01:04:11] Speaker B: What's going on? My children's lunchboxes. [01:04:13] Speaker A: Do you Guys have date nights? No, we just make a podcast once every six months. Romantic. [01:04:18] Speaker B: We cathartically sort out our problems by. But here's the thing. Ironically, there's something in that, that when you give yourself to others, which is really what this podcast is venture is about, that you actually do begin to outwork your own issues and you discover more of yourself and you flourish. And there's a truth to that. So the million dollar question just to wrap up the episode is what do you think we can do about the mental load? I mean, obviously, okay, you get rid of your phones or park them or don't have so much the expectations on yourself. Don't, don't. All that kind of stuff. But what in a relational way do you think men can do? What can couples do together? [01:04:59] Speaker A: It's just asking, yeah, what can I do to help you? And I think it comes down to that waking up and choosing to put the other person first. You know, which I think women do more naturally once you have kids. [01:05:11] Speaker B: Yeah, I have this theory is more natural. I have a theory that women, because they, that they nurture their children within them. I don't think that bond ever goes even with the children who might become absolutely rebellious and awful in their adult years. That bond, I think it's like that connection even though you cut the umbilical cord. That's why you probably have that saying, you know, it's time to cut the apron strings because. And that's what needs to happen, particularly to boys as they get older. Men need to step in and say, right Mum, now you need to take a back seat. This is where I need to step in. And mum struggle with that. Because that bond is so powerful, it just doesn't stop. It's not like you can turn it off. [01:05:54] Speaker A: No, that's right. There's always that connection there. [01:05:56] Speaker B: So asking is helpful. [01:05:58] Speaker A: Asking is great. Well, for me, I mean, I don't know for everybody, but for me asking is good. What can I do to help? [01:06:03] Speaker B: See, I feel a little bit like [01:06:04] Speaker A: your day go better. [01:06:05] Speaker C: Yes. [01:06:05] Speaker B: And it feels to me a little bit like she was saying, no, the asking is the problem. I'm like, well, no, I don't think so. [01:06:10] Speaker A: No, I think she was saying the doing is a problem because they might do it wrong. [01:06:12] Speaker B: But then they have to ask and [01:06:13] Speaker A: he has to ask. [01:06:15] Speaker B: And I'm like, but she wants an on rescient husband there. [01:06:17] Speaker A: If you're really worried about it, send a whole lot of screenshots. [01:06:20] Speaker B: She wants, you know, like this is what it looks like she wants God as her husband, then who knows everything, all things at all times, knows her mind totally. That's not who men are. You'll never. [01:06:27] Speaker A: She's asking for something that's not possible. Like, you can't ever split the mental road, like, well, ladies. [01:06:34] Speaker B: Exactly. And that's what I'd say. Ladies, if you're listening, oranges. Yeah. If you are listening you, unless you've got one of those rare, rare ducks, then for a husband, then you just, just your. Your husband is just going, hey, yeah. They're pretty rare breeds, though, that are going to know everything and know all of your wants and worms. Like, they've literally made you their study. They've examined everything about you that is just. [01:06:58] Speaker C: And just. [01:06:59] Speaker A: And I think so you have to cut them, let some stuff go. [01:07:02] Speaker B: If he's ringing you from the supermarket, you should stop and say, man, a lot of husbands are potentially not even at the supermarket. [01:07:10] Speaker A: Yeah, that's true. Yeah. Asking what you can do to help letting stuff go a little bit. And I had another thing, but I've forgotten what it was. Oh, like let your wife download. Sometimes, you know, sometimes I'm stressed because the mental load is all in my [01:07:24] Speaker B: brain and you just need to put it out there. [01:07:26] Speaker A: Most time I write it in a list, but sometimes I just need you to be like, oh, listen to all that stuff she's thinking about and worrying about. Oh, she's awesome. [01:07:34] Speaker B: One thing I've noticed that does seem to help is, I mean, I could be reading this wrong, but is when I actually just ask you randomly, how are you going? As in not what tasks have you got to play, but how are you going with the stress of it all? And then it just gives you an opportunity to actually just say, yeah, and if I notice what's on top? [01:07:57] Speaker A: Because you don't always know. You make assumptions. Not you, but generally people make assumptions about what's on top. Oh, she's stressed because X. But actually she might be stressed because of Y. Like, actually ask her. [01:08:08] Speaker B: Yeah. And I think the other thing too is you've got to be careful about this one, I think. But the whole idea of actually just noticing the stress and then asking, you know, are you okay? If, if you think, if you, if you think you can see perhaps that the mental load is getting to her, but the, the danger there, of course, is that you, you'll cop it. Yeah. Because you, you ask at the wrong time or in front of people and it just then makes her feel inadequate. Like this me, I'll show It to you. People can't see it but this half cooked looking monster from a B grade doctor who thing and it says you look stressed. Thanks. It's the stress. It's like you don't want that kind of reaction. So yeah, you've. But, but actually sort of just saying, hey, are you okay? Can I, can I help with anything? Yeah, I think too probably would it be fair to say too that females do need to also perhaps stop and remind themselves, hey, maybe I don't need to carry as much of these things as a burden. Like if it's my kids getting fed, that's one thing. But if it's, you know, what shape their sandwiches are and that's a, you know. [01:09:14] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, you can. [01:09:16] Speaker B: Did they get fed to choosing what they did. They have life. [01:09:19] Speaker A: Pick your battles. [01:09:19] Speaker B: You know, everyone survived. The house didn't burn down. Well, actually we've done okay. [01:09:22] Speaker A: That's right. My mum said to me when, when we first had Lucy, so we just had one baby. She said some days all you will get done is the baby. And that's okay. [01:09:29] Speaker B: Yeah, that's very wise. [01:09:30] Speaker A: I was like, it's very wise. Like you've got to give yourself a bit of slack. You know, there are seasons and there are days when. Days when suddenly you can. I have. When I say I've had a busy day kitchening. There are days when you can be in the kitchen all day and bake all the things and be like, you know, ballerina farm or whatever. But yeah, but there are days when that's just not going to happen. [01:09:49] Speaker B: And yeah, on that note, thank you again everyone for tuning in. It was great to be back on air. [01:09:57] Speaker A: I Out in the Internet, out in the Internet world. [01:10:00] Speaker B: I love it. Exposing all of our parenting and marital faults and foibles to the world. But yeah, hopefully you found it helpful. Huge thank you to all of our supporters. Don't forget if you want to support us. We really appreciate that. And it's not just helping the podcast, it's also helping all the other important offline ministry work that we do as well. Your contributions go towards that. The dispatches substack, you can find that we're just googling the dispatches and you'll find the substack by Brenda Malone. I think it's one of the third things that comes up. You can become a regular subscriber there or you can go to lifenet.org nz then the bank account details are there and if you're in New Zealand and you let us know your details then we can give you a tax receipt at the end of the year. So. Lovely. And, of course, if you've got questions, don't Forget, go to lifenet.orgnz and leave us the questions for future episodes. Katie, do you have anything final? Any final thoughts? Any last requests? [01:10:58] Speaker A: No, nothing I can think of. [01:11:00] Speaker B: All right, well, on that happy night, we will bid you adieu. And we will say, don't forget, live by goodness, truth and beauty, not by lies. And we'll see you next time on the Little Flock. [01:11:09] Speaker A: See you then.